Even 25min Of Running May Be Too Much

[haidut]

In confirmation of Ray's stance against endurance exercise, this latest study showed that performing as few as 3 weekly sessions of running each of them 25min long is enough to disturb the hormone balance heavily in favor of cortisol and induce a catabolic state.

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2015/04 ... en-25.html
"...The statistical analysis of the results of the blood tests revealed that the cortisol levels in the exercise group were significantly increased compared with the control group (P<0.05). The ratio of DHEA to cortisol on the other hand, decreased significantly."

"...this appears to indicate that any 8-week endurance training similar to the present protocol will establish a catabolic environment in the body of inactive young women. Mahdaviyan, et al. further point out that they believe that this was a result of "overtraining, and besides the psychological and physiological condition".

[PDF] The Effect of Endurance Training on the Ratio of Serum Cortisol to Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in Inactive Young Women | Semantic Scholar

 

[jaa]

Nice find haidut!

I think the key here is to avoid over training. The subjects in this study were young women who were previously sedentary. Making them run 3x a week for 25 minutes is going to be a huge shock to their bodies. And given they used to be sedentary, they almost certainly do not warm up well, or cool down properly, or utilize other techniques that will help their recovery. They may be eating and sleeping poorly on top of all that. It doesn't seem unlikely that a moderately athletic individual can run 3x a week for 25 minutes with no issues.

Personally, I find my body is the best indicator of when I should train and how hard I can push it. If I overdue things I can get 9hrs sleep and wake up feeling like I got hit by a truck and feel lethargic for the next day or two.

 

[aquaman]

I think posts like this are dangerous. I think in general the board is full of overweight people who want to drink 10 cups of coffee a day and be told it's good for them, do no aerobic exercise, and drink orange juice.

I know many people say running and consistent exercise significantly improves their lives. I've seen friends change a lot through endurance exercise - they become more focused, more resilient, and have greater faith in their own strength and ability. I think dismissing it because of Cortisol is a bad idea.

We're designed to move.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It doesn't seem unlikely that a moderately athletic individual can run 3x a week for 25 minutes with no issues.

Yes because their metabolism downregulates. Try jogging and taking T3 every day, see how far you can get after a month.

 

[kineticz]

I agree with aquaman on this.

Exercise MUST be targeted and strategic in order to gain benefits.

Sluggish lung capacity, posture and respiration all increase the use of adrenaline. Exercise increases adrenaline and fatty acids but if serotonin is reduced it allows those fatty acids to gain entry for energy, reducing buildup in the arteries and liver, so is healthier than being sedentary, but not optimum.

The optimum use of cardiovascular exercise is accompanied by the reduction of serotonin and this means the reduction in the catabolic release of trytophan from muscle to form serotonin. This is the tricky part for those hypothyroid, in a helpless lifestyle, catabolic habits, etc. This is where cardiovascular exercise will have a negative impact, but that is not to say cardio is a bad routine, it's just due to the nature of tissue destruction it can exacerbate the trends among us.

We have to understand that Ray Peat's arguments are correct but heavily geared towards and against increased catabolism in people where catabolism is an issue and is prolonged. Not everyone has this problem and can tolerate the uptake of increased repairs.

Cardio has many beneficial effects on neurotransmitter sensitivity, brain blood flow and cognition, lung capacity and sleep apnea, mental willpower, the list goes on.

Endurance exercise is heavily sensitive to your pregnenolone reserves and inflammation processes. Obviously sodium and glucose should be consumed before or during endurance exercise.

The adrenals are the most essential part of a person, not testosterone. Endurance exercise under the right conditions is excellent for strengthening adrenal output and the stress threshold.

As anything, if you are running at a deficit, heavily taxing the organism can be catastrophic to progress.

 

[charlie]

I think posts like this are dangerous. I think in general the board is full of overweight people who want to drink 10 cups of coffee a day and be told it's good for them, do no aerobic exercise, and drink orange juice.

 

[Such_Saturation]

We must find all lazy people on the internet to complete their reeducation

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

Depends on your goals... For example, I'd like to see how much cortisol is circulating in the Tarahumara runners. Probably less than the average couch potato.

 

[answersfound]

Ha my friends always tell me I'm lazy because I don't do cardio.

 

[jaa]

It doesn't seem unlikely that a moderately athletic individual can run 3x a week for 25 minutes with no issues.

Yes because their metabolism downregulates. Try jogging and taking T3 every day, see how far you can get after a month.

Are you speaking from experience?

A doc for the U.S. Track team who used a TSH over 2.0 to diagnose hypothyroidism diagnosed 17% of the distance runners on that team with hypothyroidism. So a majority were not hypo, and those who were assumedly did not have any adverse reactions to the thyroid medication or this guy would stop prescribing it. What do you think I'm missing?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3149043072

 

[charlie]

A doc for the U.S. Track team who used a TSH over 2.0 to diagnose hypothyroidism diagnosed 17% of the distance runners on that team with hypothyroidism. So a majority were not hypo, and those who were assumedly did not have any adverse reactions to the thyroid medication or this guy would stop prescribing it. What do you think I'm missing?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3149043072

What were their temps and pulse?

 

[Such_Saturation]

It doesn't seem unlikely that a moderately athletic individual can run 3x a week for 25 minutes with no issues.

Yes because their metabolism downregulates. Try jogging and taking T3 every day, see how far you can get after a month.

Are you speaking from experience?

A doc for the U.S. Track team who used a TSH over 2.0 to diagnose hypothyroidism diagnosed 17% of the distance runners on that team with hypothyroidism. So a majority were not hypo, and those who were assumedly did not have any adverse reactions to the thyroid medication or this guy would stop prescribing it. What do you think I'm missing?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3149043072

That is just my personal experience trying to "get fit" again. I also tried zinc if I recall correctly. I'd probably look for T3 and rT3 because TSH can well become suppressed in some way. Look at http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... d-hormone/

 

[jyb]

It doesn't seem unlikely that a moderately athletic individual can run 3x a week for 25 minutes with no issues.

Yes because their metabolism downregulates. Try jogging and taking T3 every day, see how far you can get after a month.

Are you speaking from experience?

A doc for the U.S. Track team who used a TSH over 2.0 to diagnose hypothyroidism diagnosed 17% of the distance runners on that team with hypothyroidism. So a majority were not hypo, and those who were assumedly did not have any adverse reactions to the thyroid medication or this guy would stop prescribing it. What do you think I'm missing?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3149043072

TSH of 2? That's a lot lower bar than for the general population (hypo threshold at TSH 5?). The fact that 17% has TSH < 2 doesn't seem bad at all...

 

[Such_Saturation]

TSH decreased during the first day of activities and remained low throughout the course. The TSH response to TRH stimulation was greatly reduced during the course due to physical exercise and calorie deficiency.

We have reported previously that at delta 48 the subjects had evidence of mild thyroidal impairment, which consisted of decreased T3 and rT3, and an exaggerated TSH response to TRH. With more prolonged training (delta 48 to delta 80) there were significant increases in T4, rT3, and unstimulated TSH, while the ratios of T4/rT3 and T3/rT3 and the TSH response to TRH decreased significantly.

 

[jaa]

What were their temps and pulse?

Good question. I'm willing to wager that if the doc was going with TSH <2.0 he was measuring them.

That is just my personal experience trying to "get fit" again. I also tried zinc if I recall correctly. I'd probably look for T3 and rT3 because TSH can well become suppressed in some way. Look at http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... d-hormone/

Thanks for the link. What physical symptoms did you notice? I've started jogging 2x/week (on top of Muay Thai and strength training) and I'd like to keep an eye out for any trouble.

TSH of 2? That's a lot lower bar than for the general population (hypo threshold at TSH 5?). The fact that 17% has TSH < 2 doesn't seem bad at all...

I know I found it pretty surprising. It could be due to the down regulation like S_S suggested. It would be nice to see the full panel.

 

[BingDing]

I think posts like this are dangerous. I think in general the board is full of overweight people who want to drink 10 cups of coffee a day and be told it's good for them, do no aerobic exercise, and drink orange juice.

I know many people say running and consistent exercise significantly improves their lives. I've seen friends change a lot through endurance exercise - they become more focused, more resilient, and have greater faith in their own strength and ability. I think dismissing it because of Cortisol is a bad idea.

We're designed to move.

I think you are conflating several different ideas here, and not very graciously. This board is full of people who are quite dedicated to their health and well being.

Running and "aerobic" exercises are actually hyperventilating and exhausting CO2. Ray has pointed out in more than one place that this type of activity is actually anaerobic because the low CO2 causes tighter binding of O2 by hemoglobin (Bohr effect) and the lower available O2 inhibits oxidative respiration, forcing the mitochondria into anaerobic glycolysis.

Also, about 5% of the extra oxygen taken in is converted to reactive oxygen species or free radicals, increasing the potential for oxidative damage.

I won't gainsay your friends experience, humans are incredibly resilient. But endurance athletes only increase the damage.

We are made to move, but that includes lots of activities that don't cause hyperventilating. In my opinion, walking outdoors is a better way to be active.

 

[Blossom]

 

[jyb]

I know I found it pretty surprising. It could be due to the down regulation like S_S suggested. It would be nice to see the full panel.

It's not too surprising. These runners are probably very healthy to start with. We can hypothesise that their running experience isn't going to improve their health or thyroid function, however they start from very high and are probably resistant.

 

[nikotrope]

It doesn't seem unlikely that a moderately athletic individual can run 3x a week for 25 minutes with no issues.

Yes because their metabolism downregulates. Try jogging and taking T3 every day, see how far you can get after a month.

Are you speaking from experience?

A doc for the U.S. Track team who used a TSH over 2.0 to diagnose hypothyroidism diagnosed 17% of the distance runners on that team with hypothyroidism. So a majority were not hypo, and those who were assumedly did not have any adverse reactions to the thyroid medication or this guy would stop prescribing it. What do you think I'm missing?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... 3149043072

From what I read, top marathon runners are supplementing thyroid hormones as a replacement for all the banned drugs. I don't have facts though, just what clean runners are saying.

 

[jaa]

I think posts like this are dangerous. I think in general the board is full of overweight people who want to drink 10 cups of coffee a day and be told it's good for them, do no aerobic exercise, and drink orange juice.

I know many people say running and consistent exercise significantly improves their lives. I've seen friends change a lot through endurance exercise - they become more focused, more resilient, and have greater faith in their own strength and ability. I think dismissing it because of Cortisol is a bad idea.

We're designed to move.

I think you are conflating several different ideas here, and not very graciously. This board is full of people who are quite dedicated to their health and well being.

Running and "aerobic" exercises are actually hyperventilating and exhausting CO2. Ray has pointed out in more than one place that this type of activity is actually anaerobic because the low CO2 causes tighter binding of O2 by hemoglobin (Bohr effect) and the lower available O2 inhibits oxidative respiration, forcing the mitochondria into anaerobic glycolysis.

Also, about 5% of the extra oxygen taken in is converted to reactive oxygen species or free radicals, increasing the potential for oxidative damage.

I won't gainsay your friends experience, humans are incredibly resilient. But endurance athletes only increase the damage.

We are made to move, but that includes lots of activities that don't cause hyperventilating. In my opinion, walking outdoors is a better way to be active.

I agree that walking is healthier than jogging in general. But I think jogging can be part of a healthy lifestyle. I think it is possible to jog and not spew CO2. It depends on your fitness level and output rate. If you're racing, you're going to lose a lot of CO2. That's the nature of the beast. But I'm sure I can jog at a leisurely pace for 30 minutes and breath a lot less heavily than a lot of people who walk for that long.