Effect Of Progesterone On SHBG In Men

Sobieski

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Does anyone know how progesterone effects SHBG levels in men? I know it raises it in women but I've seen no real research on the effects of the male endocrine system in that regard.
 

Lurker

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My understanding is that SHBG was protective against high estrogen. I’m not sure if I read that from Peat, here, or somewhere else. I don’t recall seeing progesterone mentioned with regard to SHBG so I look forward to comments from others.
 

Aleeri

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I've done blood tests before and after when I used progesterone cream as well as the herb Fadogia Agrestis.

Results were increase in SHBG, total T and free T and reductions in E2 estradiol.

After this experience, I came to the conclusion that natural progesterone is not feminizing as long as it is not overdosed.
 
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Sobieski

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I've done blood tests before and after when I used progesterone cream as well as the herb Fadogia Agrestis.

Results were increase in SHBG, total T and free T and reductions in E2 estradiol.

After this experience, I came to the conclusion that natural progesterone is not feminizing as long as it is not overdosed.

Thank you for your input, would you mind sharing some labs/bloodwork? If not, what sort of increase did you experience in Test/SHBG and what decline in E2?
What was your experience with progesterone?

Thanks
 

A.R

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I've done blood tests before and after when I used progesterone cream as well as the herb Fadogia Agrestis.

Results were increase in SHBG, total T and free T and reductions in E2 estradiol.

After this experience, I came to the conclusion that natural progesterone is not feminizing as long as it is not overdosed.
What dosages were you taking? Thanks
 

Aleeri

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I was taking a standard dosage of Fadogia (whatever it said on the bottle) as well as 10-20mg Progesterone cream per day.

I definitely overdid the progesterone amounts since it tanked my estradiol but other than that I actually had improvements in sexual function, sleep, and mood to a pretty large degree. I was struggling with low free testosterone at the time as you can see.

Here are the labs:

Total Testosterone 6.10 ng/mL ----> 9.898 ng/mL - HIGH
SHBG 58.2 nmol/L - HIGH ----> 74,5 nmol/L - HIGH
Free Testosterone 88 pg/mL - LOW ----> 101 pg/mL
Estradiol (E2) 24.8 pg/mL ----> < 10 pg/mL - LOW

Progesterone before supplementation was 0.19 ng/mL (did not test afterward)
 

schultz

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I was taking a standard dosage of Fadogia (whatever it said on the bottle) as well as 10-20mg Progesterone cream per day.

I definitely overdid the progesterone amounts since it tanked my estradiol but other than that I actually had improvements in sexual function, sleep, and mood to a pretty large degree. I was struggling with low free testosterone at the time as you can see.

Here are the labs:

Total Testosterone 6.10 ng/mL ----> 9.898 ng/mL - HIGH
SHBG 58.2 nmol/L - HIGH ----> 74,5 nmol/L - HIGH
Free Testosterone 88 pg/mL - LOW ----> 101 pg/mL
Estradiol (E2) 24.8 pg/mL ----> < 10 pg/mL - LOW

Progesterone before supplementation was 0.19 ng/mL (did not test afterward)

Thanks for posting this. I am always appreciative of this kind of info.

10-20mg of progesterone cream applied topically I assume? A lot of the creams have pretty poor absorption so it's possible you were only getting 5mg or under. I think even progest-e is only about 20% absorption, which is why Ray recommends taking it orally. Do you happen to remember which product you used?
 
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Sobieski

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I was taking a standard dosage of Fadogia (whatever it said on the bottle) as well as 10-20mg Progesterone cream per day.

I definitely overdid the progesterone amounts since it tanked my estradiol but other than that I actually had improvements in sexual function, sleep, and mood to a pretty large degree. I was struggling with low free testosterone at the time as you can see.

Here are the labs:

Total Testosterone 6.10 ng/mL ----> 9.898 ng/mL - HIGH
SHBG 58.2 nmol/L - HIGH ----> 74,5 nmol/L - HIGH
Free Testosterone 88 pg/mL - LOW ----> 101 pg/mL
Estradiol (E2) 24.8 pg/mL ----> < 10 pg/mL - LOW

Progesterone before supplementation was 0.19 ng/mL (did not test afterward)

Thanks for the info. I've recently started supplementing with 1 drop (3mg) and I've also noticed some subtle, yet positive effects. I also happen to be in the same boat as you with high total t but also high SHBG, (moderate E2) hence the question. I made a thread in November about my progress Here. Before Peat I was hypogonadal, now I'm not but despite an increase in quality of life I still want to improve.
 

Aleeri

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Thanks for posting this. I am always appreciative of this kind of info.

10-20mg of progesterone cream applied topically I assume? A lot of the creams have pretty poor absorption so it's possible you were only getting 5mg or under. I think even progest-e is only about 20% absorption, which is why Ray recommends taking it orally. Do you happen to remember which product you used?

I used Now Foods Progesterone cream (lavender scent), applied topically on mostly forearms, chest and thighs.
 

Aleeri

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Thanks for the info. I've recently started supplementing with 1 drop (3mg) and I've also noticed some subtle, yet positive effects. I also happen to be in the same boat as you with high total t but also high SHBG, (moderate E2) hence the question. I made a thread in November about my progress Here. Before Peat I was hypogonadal, now I'm not but despite an increase in quality of life I still want to improve.

Hey Sobieski, I checked out your thread, we seem to be in a very similar boat. My hormones started going back to healthy levels after I upped the fat and decreased the fiber.

I am going to do new labs soon after peating for 2-3 months, excited to see what they show. Honestly, desiccated thyroid has done huge changes for me, it seems like a lot of my issues was thyroid related. I am hoping to see an increase in Free T.
 

Luckytype

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Hey Sobieski, I checked out your thread, we seem to be in a very similar boat. My hormones started going back to healthy levels after I upped the fat and decreased the fiber.

I am going to do new labs soon after peating for 2-3 months, excited to see what they show. Honestly, desiccated thyroid has done huge changes for me, it seems like a lot of my issues was thyroid related. I am hoping to see an increase in Free T.

Could you elaborate on your ndt experience and dosing a bit? Im in the fence about it, struggling with my approach
 

postman

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I've done blood tests before and after when I used progesterone cream as well as the herb Fadogia Agrestis.

Results were increase in SHBG, total T and free T and reductions in E2 estradiol.

After this experience, I came to the conclusion that natural progesterone is not feminizing as long as it is not overdosed.
Progesterone is definately feminizing, and that's why commcercial milk in general is feminizing and lowers testosterone as evidenced by multiple studies, that's why transgender people take progesterone supplements to get fuller breasts, that's why progesterone lowers penile size
 

Mossy

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Progesterone is definately feminizing, and that's why commcercial milk in general is feminizing and lowers testosterone as evidenced by multiple studies, that's why transgender people take progesterone supplements to get fuller breasts, that's why progesterone lowers penile size
There definitely seems to be two schools of thought on progesterone. I'm still in the need-more-information/education stage, but am hoping to draw some conclusions about what one can really expect when taking progesterone.

You've made some pretty specific statements about the feminizing effects of progesterone. That's not to say you're incorrect, but as I attempt to determine what perspective is correct, I do see studies and specifics provided that are evidence of pro-androgen benefits from progesterone. For instance, Haidut on this forum, has stated that even if T does reduce a bit from progesterone, it was due to it already being on the high side, and that it will not continually reduce. He goes on to say that those with low T could expect to get a boost from progesterone, but may need some DHEA to aid in this:

" In some people with high testosterone progesterone may actually lowers it, as well as DHT. I don't think that would change much as the human studies show no more than 10% decrease in T in people with T levels in the upper 25% of the range. In people with low testosterone it may actually increase it since it is aromatase inhibitor and estrogen antagonist. One study showed 30% boost in T in men with low testosterone after taking 200mg micronized progesterone orally for a month. I also posted an animal study showing increases in both T and DHT from human equivalent oral dose of 600mg. Finally, in the people that feel libido waning on progesterone - you can take 5mg DHEA with it and this resolve the issue. Progesterone stimulates the steroid cascade and DHEA will convert further down the pathways. Since progesterone will block/inhibit the estrogen pathways, most of the DHEA will end up as T and DHT. Try it out and see for yourselves, but make sure you do blood work too just to make sure."

I add these thoughts not to say your comments are false, but to add the other perspective to the conversation, in the hopes of drawing an accurate conclusion. Ultimately, we're all so unique and complex, there may not be a one-size-fits-all answer for progesterone.
 
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Aleeri

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Could you elaborate on your ndt experience and dosing a bit? Im in the fence about it, struggling with my approach

I emailed Peat my labs & average temperature (36-36.3 Celsius) and heart rate (50-65bpm), he recommended 30mg NDT per day (half a grain).

Results after 2-3 weeks of this are doubling in energy levels, never cold, a lot more pep, confident and calm as well as consistent morning wood every day to different strengths. Definitely, androgenic stuff going on.
 

Aleeri

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Progesterone is definately feminizing, and that's why commcercial milk in general is feminizing and lowers testosterone as evidenced by multiple studies, that's why transgender people take progesterone supplements to get fuller breasts, that's why progesterone lowers penile size

First off, the studies done on hormones in milk and their consumption was done on industrialized dairy cows that are kept constantly producing milk: Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows. - PubMed - NCBI Cows that produce milk according to their natural cycle would have much less. The hormones are also concentrated in the milk fat so sticking to skim or low-fat milk would reduce them greatly. Many know the benefits of consuming more calcium than phosphorus in the diet, milk makes this easy. Also, there is quite a bit of research done that dairy has many nutritional benefits as well as reducing the risks of some diseases and cancer Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence - You could also argue that the progesterone in milk balances its estrogen content, which is really the problematic one rather than progesterone.

Key takeaway? Milk does not seem all that problematic despite its hormone content.


Second, I live in the #1 trans-country in the world, Thailand. Few ladyboys use progesterone to make their boobs bigger here, it is mostly about estrogen therapy and/or they use an estrogenic thai herb called Pueraria Mirifica which is also popular as a boob cream for women.

If you simply google the issue as well you find plenty of contradicting stuff more in line with Peat:

"However, there is at present no clinical evidence that either progesterone or progestins enhance breast size, shape, or appearance in either trans women or cisgender women, and one study found no benefit to breast hemicircumference over estrogen alone in a small sample of trans women given both an estrogen and an ..."

"My endo who is also my gender therapist (she has twenty years of experience with TS people BTW) doesn't believe in progesterone in the treatment of transsexual women. Why? because in her experience, progesterone tends to cause masculinization effects on some women, and hence their estrogen regimen has to be increased to potentially dangerous levels (especially if the patient is over forty years of age)"


When I used progesterone cream it boosted my testosterone levels and I have proof in my labs and how I felt (I have used fadogia before solo without the same effects). It also increased my sexual function specifically erectile hardness, stamina and libido. It likley did all of this because I was slightly deficient in progesterone.

Most of the antiprogesterone crowd base their thoughts on the old studies done on synthetic progestins and not on natural progesterone. No matter how you twist and turn it progesterone exists in men and is needed in specific amounts for good health. It's all about balance.

If I follow your way of reasoning I could say that testosterone is feminizing too since if you have too much of it you will get feminizing effects from excess conversion to estrogen, which happens if you overdose your TRT, use steroids or have a deficiency of progesterone (which induces estrogen dominance). Similar as progesterone would be feminizing in excess because it would then be too much of an anti-androgen rather than just opposing estrogen.
 
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Sobieski

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First off, the studies done on hormones in milk and their consumption was done on industrialized dairy cows that are kept constantly producing milk: Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows. - PubMed - NCBI Cows that produce milk according to their natural cycle would have much less. The hormones are also concentrated in the milk fat so sticking to skim or low-fat milk would reduce them greatly. Many know the benefits of consuming more calcium than phosphorus in the diet, milk makes this easy. Also, there is quite a bit of research done that dairy has many nutritional benefits as well as reducing the risks of some diseases and cancer Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence - You could also argue that the progesterone in milk balances its estrogen content, which is really the problematic one rather than progesterone.

Key takeaway? Milk does not seem all that problematic despite its hormone content.


Second, I live in the #1 trans-country in the world, Thailand. Few ladyboys use progesterone to make their boobs bigger here, it is mostly about estrogen therapy and/or they use an estrogenic thai herb called Pueraria Mirifica which is also popular as a boob cream for women.

If you simply google the issue as well you find plenty of contradicting stuff more in line with Peat:

"However, there is at present no clinical evidence that either progesterone or progestins enhance breast size, shape, or appearance in either trans women or cisgender women, and one study found no benefit to breast hemicircumference over estrogen alone in a small sample of trans women given both an estrogen and an ..."

"My endo who is also my gender therapist (she has twenty years of experience with TS people BTW) doesn't believe in progesterone in the treatment of transsexual women. Why? because in her experience, progesterone tends to cause masculinization effects on some women, and hence their estrogen regimen has to be increased to potentially dangerous levels (especially if the patient is over forty years of age)"


When I used progesterone cream it boosted my testosterone levels and I have proof in my labs and how I felt (I have used fadogia before solo without the same effects). It also increased my sexual function specifically erectile hardness, stamina and libido. It likley did all of this because I was slightly deficient in progesterone.

Most of the antiprogesterone crowd base their thoughts on the old studies done on synthetic progestins and not on natural progesterone. No matter how you twist and turn it progesterone exists in men and is needed in specific amounts for good health. It's all about balance.

If I follow your way of reasoning I could say that testosterone is feminizing too since if you have too much of it you will get feminizing effects from excess conversion to estrogen, which happens if you overdose your TRT, use steroids or have a deficiency of progesterone (which induces estrogen dominance). Similar as progesterone would be feminizing in excess because it would then be too much of an anti-androgen rather than just opposing estrogen.


Great post. I've been experiencing androgenic benefits from low dose prog but it's very early days yet.
 

postman

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First off, the studies done on hormones in milk and their consumption was done on industrialized dairy cows that are kept constantly producing milk: Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows. - PubMed - NCBI Cows that produce milk according to their natural cycle would have much less.
Completely irrelvant unless you own your own cows.

The hormones are also concentrated in the milk fat so sticking to skim or low-fat milk would reduce them greatly.
It does reduce the hormone levels but the exposure is still huge, and it's by far the biggest environmental exposure to female sexual hormones.

You could also argue that the progesterone in milk balances its estrogen content, which is really the problematic one rather than progesterone.
Both are female sex hormones and both are antagonistic to testosterone.

Key takeaway? Milk does not seem all that problematic despite its hormone content.
So what is your model for explaining how milk lowers both testosterone and estrogen if it's not the progesterone? What else could it be? What in milk lowers testosterone and estrogen?

Second, I live in the #1 trans-country in the world, Thailand. Few ladyboys use progesterone to make their boobs bigger here, it is mostly about estrogen therapy and/or they use an estrogenic thai herb called Pueraria Mirifica which is also popular as a boob cream for women.

If you simply google the issue as well you find plenty of contradicting stuff more in line with Peat:

"However, there is at present no clinical evidence that either progesterone or progestins enhance breast size, shape, or appearance in either trans women or cisgender women, and one study found no benefit to breast hemicircumference over estrogen alone in a small sample of trans women given both an estrogen and an ..."

"My endo who is also my gender therapist (she has twenty years of experience with TS people BTW) doesn't believe in progesterone in the treatment of transsexual women. Why? because in her experience, progesterone tends to cause masculinization effects on some women, and hence their estrogen regimen has to be increased to potentially dangerous levels (especially if the patient is over forty years of age)"

And I can find a hundred testimonials claming the exact opposite. I don't think anyone on this forum consider endocrinologists competent.

When I used progesterone cream it boosted my testosterone levels and I have proof in my labs and how I felt (I have used fadogia before solo without the same effects). It also increased my sexual function specifically erectile hardness, stamina and libido. It likley did all of this because I was slightly deficient in progesterone.

Interesting, maybe you had estrogen dominance before and that's why it helped you.

If I follow your way of reasoning I could say that testosterone is feminizing too since if you have too much of it you will get feminizing effects from excess conversion to estrogen, which happens if you overdose your TRT, use steroids or have a deficiency of progesterone (which induces estrogen dominance). Similar as progesterone would be feminizing in excess because it would then be too much of an anti-androgen rather than just opposing estrogen.
Silly nonsense, any amount of progesterone antognizes testosterone, the only way it could lead to a total increase of testosterone is if you have an estrogen problem and it antagonizes estrogen more than it antagonizes testosterone, maybe progesterone is less antagonistic to testosterone than estrogen is.
 

Aleeri

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Completely irrelvant unless you own your own cows.

Depends on the country, in my home country of Sweden you can easily get more traditional dairy.

It does reduce the hormone levels but the exposure is still huge, and it's by far the biggest environmental exposure to female sexual hormones.

I am not convinced, there is plenty of conflicting research. Estrone and estrone sulfate concentrations in milk and milk fractions. - PubMed - NCBI

As well as that most of the hormone content is inactivated: Impact of cows’ milk estrogen on cancer risk - ScienceDirect

Rat study show no effect: http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(16)30323-X/fulltext?rss=yes

"Only when the amount of estrogen reached 1000 times the amount found in milk, it became possible to detect effects on the blood and genitals. This observation is really no mystery: estrogens are steroid hormones and they are, by and large, all broken down during first-pass metabolism in the liver [17] – until the concentrations overwhelm this system."

Most steroid hormones have to be injected or consumed in very high amounts because of how the liver works.

Also if in fact, it was true then you could recommend dairy for the treatment of menopause, but it is not effective for that. Soy isoflavones are though so this points that it's much weaker in effects than that.

Also relevant for effects in women: https://watermark.silverchair.com/j...zPG4jPLUaXu18xsmgYtpNBr7E0yYgMVC4Vg3RqClFedqg

I think the biggest environmental exposure is xenoestrogens in stuff such as plastics, this is what is destroying wildlife and such, not from excess milk hormones in our urine released into our rivers.


Both are female sex hormones and both are antagonistic to testosterone.

So what is your model for explaining how milk lowers both testosterone and estrogen if it's not the progesterone? What else could it be? What in milk lowers testosterone and estrogen?


In this study low fat dairy correlated with higher sperm volume and motility: Dairy intake and semen quality among men attending a fertility clinic

Full fat decreased sperm quality: Dairy food intake in relation to semen quality and reproductive hormone levels among physically active young men

Personally, I think it must have to do with the quality of the dairy, how it's produced etc. I think industrialized US dairy probably has the worst in terms of hormone content. Also I think if you have leaky gut or other issues more of these hormones can be absorbed.

If it was really a problem I would expect to see higher hormonal driven cancer rates (breast and prostate) in countries that consume a lot of dairy such as Mongolia, but we don't:
Breast cancer incidence in Mongolia
Cancer incidence and cancer control in Mongolia: Results from the National Cancer Registry 2008–12


Interesting, maybe you had estrogen dominance before and that's why it helped you.

Silly nonsense, any amount of progesterone antognizes testosterone, the only way it could lead to a total increase of testosterone is if you have an estrogen problem and it antagonizes estrogen more than it antagonizes testosterone, maybe progesterone is less antagonistic to testosterone than estrogen is.

My E2 was 24.8pg/mL before using the progesterone cream.

Have you read Dr Lee's book on progesterone? (it's based on a lot of Peat's research as well)

"Researcher John R. Lee M.D. has observed that “in animal studies large doses of progesterone inhibited sexual behavior, but a physiologic dose (equivalent to what the body would produce) stimulated male copulatory behavior.”

A study done some years ago addressed the issue of progesterone supplementation in men. The results showed that when progesterone is given to young men, their testosterone levels fell. We know that progesterone is the precursor of testosterone in men. It is synthesized in their testes to produce testosterone. Dr. John Lee, who has done such extensive study and teaching, suggests that because many testosterone receptors accept progesterone, it is very probable that a biofeedback signal in the brain automatically reduces testosterone production when it senses a higher level of progesterone in the body."

I think you cannot look at these hormones in a mechanistic context where their effects will always be in one way, it depends on the overall state of the body. I've seen guys with 2-3x over normal DHT levels and they struggled with low libido and ED.

Progesterone levels decrease with age. Young males have peak natural production of testosterone, DHT and progesterone. This suggests the optimal levels you want and all the guys who benefit from supplementation do it likely because of a deficiency. Progesterone also has other benefits: Progesterone: the forgotten hormone in men? - PubMed - NCBI
 

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