Dr Robert Morse Take On Nutrition - Similar To Ray Peat - Your Opinion

[EquilibriumSW]

Here is a video where he talks in detail. What do you guys think?
He seems on point.

 

[Blossom]

@Jennifer has posted some things about him and seems to have benefited from the what she learned. Hopefully she will see this thread and reply.

 

[jyb]

Seriously? I randomly listened at 17:20 onwards. I honestly cannot remember hearing something so ridiculous in my entire life reading through health forums and blogs. Bring me back some Mercola please!

 

[EquilibriumSW]

Seriously? I randomly listened at 17:20 onwards. I honestly cannot remember hearing something so ridiculous in my entire life reading through health forums and blogs.

So you went about finding the things that he seems to disagree with Raymond Peat and conclude he as nothing to give us in terms of knowledge. The video is 41.03. As the titles says he seems to agree with Raymond almost about everything.

 

[EquilibriumSW]

@Jennifer has posted some things about him and seems to have benefited from the what she learned. Hopefully she will see this thread and reply.

Thank you =)

 

[jyb]

So you went about finding the things that he seems to disagree with Raymond Peat and conclude he as nothing to give us in terms of knowledge. The video is 41.03. As the titles says he seems to agree with Raymond almost about everything.

I listened to a maybe 2 minutes and drew a conclusion. Whether he agrees with RP or not, his argumentation style makes Mercola and Asprey look like Nobel prizes in medicine.

 

[EquilibriumSW]

I listened to a maybe 2 minutes and drew a conclusion. Whether he agrees with RP or not, his argumentation style makes Mercola and Asprey look like Nobel prizes in medicine.

thank you for your time and opinion then.

 

[rainbow5000]

Could you summarize what diet he recommends Equili? Can't make heads or tales what his approach is.

 

[EquilibriumSW]

Could you summarize what diet he recommends Equili? Can't make heads or tales what his approach is.

basically everything ray peat does excluding muscle meats and dairy.

Fruit based diet, tropical, berries and sweet.

basically the thing he doesn't agree is dairy products.

Similar: no Pufas, no soy, - estrogen, no tryptophan, + progesterone (females), + testosterone (males), + magnesium, - phosphorus, + calcium

I'm asking for advice because I also don't quite understand his position.

 

[michael94]

All-fruit-diets are good short term you will notice if your limit yourself to fruit you won't really eat that much unless you force feed which just leads to problems. So it's like a form of fasting... And the fruitarian people you find that look good have basically been fasting for an incredibly long time and are rid of most of the "junk" in their body. Not to mention they tend to have much healthier lifestyles in general. This allows them to run very efficiently on the limited calories they do get despite the fact that your body likes to run on lots of SFA/MUFAs with some fruit regularly but smaller portion of calories. So yes most people would benefit from a raw fruitarian approach but it's certainly not ideal long term. Really depends on the person and what issues they are dealing with to decide how short "short-term" means.

He is right about most dairy being incompatible with optimal health, but that has more to do with pasteurization/homogenization/a1 casein.

basically everything ray peat does excluding muscle meats and dairy.

Fruit based diet, tropical, berries and sweet.

basically the thing he doesn't agree is dairy products.

Similar: no Pufas, no soy, - estrogen, no tryptophan, + progesterone (females), + testosterone (males), + magnesium, - phosphorus, + calcium

I'm asking for advice because I also don't quite understand his position.

 

[squanch]

All-fruit-diets are good short term you will notice if your limit yourself to fruit you won't really eat that much unless you force feed which just leads to problems. So it's like a form of fasting... And the fruitarian people you find that look good have basically been fasting for an incredibly long time and are rid of most of the "junk" in their body. Not to mention they tend to have much healthier lifestyles in general. This allows them to run very efficiently on the limited calories they do get despite the fact that your body likes to run on lots of SFA/MUFAs with some fruit regularly but smaller portion of calories. So yes most people would benefit from a raw fruitarian approach but it's certainly not ideal long term. Really depends on the person and what issues they are dealing with to decide how short "short-term" means.

He is right about most dairy being incompatible with optimal health, but that has more to do with pasteurization/homogenization/a1 casein.

It really does sound like he is advocating a basic fruitarian diet similar to "80/10/10"
Pretty much all people who have been eating fruitarian diets long term and are still healthy eat very high calories to allow their bodies to synthesize saturated fatty acids from carbohydrates (3500kcal+, even for women) They also pretty much all live in hot/tropical climates because it's simply way too much liquid for someone living in north america or europe.
You're also going to start hating bananas and dates really quick because that'S pretty much the only thing a normal person can afford in those huge amounts

 

[BobbyDukes]

It really does sound like he is advocating a basic fruitarian diet similar to "80/10/10"
Pretty much all people who have been eating fruitarian diets long term and are still healthy eat very high calories to allow their bodies to synthesize saturated fatty acids from carbohydrates (3500kcal+, even for women) They also pretty much all live in hot/tropical climates because it's simply way too much liquid for someone living in north america or europe.
You're also going to start hating bananas and dates really quick because that'S pretty much the only thing a normal person can afford in those huge amounts

The liquid from fruit is significantly different from the liquid that some of us guys on a Ray Peat approach are doing, though. As an example, every single commercially sold bottle of OJ I have ever tried, has resulted in me urinating like a racehorse. The OJ that is freshly squeezed from oranges however, is way way different. It doesn't make me urinate at all, and I even find it dehydrating. I have to drastically cut back on my salt intake when I am drinking proper freshly squeezed OJ. I have noticed the same with other fruits. My body holds on to the liquid, and it absorbs flawlessly. Any commercially sold fruit juices (which I do drink most of the time, because I just don't have the tools yet to squeeze that many oranges on a daily basis) will just go right through me, though. Same with milks. Low fat/skimmed milks digest terribly (increased urination), but whole unhomogenised milks (less need for urination in my case).

Plus most of the guys on a fruitarian diet are actually doing bananas and dates. Which, if you look on cronometer, in the vast quantities they are eaten, provide awesome quantities of minerals to buffer any water they might add to their 'smoothies', so I doubt whether their electrolytes are screwed. There's a fair amount of water in milk/coffee, which many here are doing.

I think the main problem with a fruitarian diet is the lack of variety (what else is there other than bananas, mangos and dates that can punch calories at an affordable level?), but also much of these fruits just aren't up to standard in terms of being eaten on a daily basis. I did one day of 30 bananas per day (think I did about 40 that day), and I have never felt so demented and confused in all my life. It definitely felt like I was on some bad drug. Definitely felt serotonergic but without anything pleasurable/mood enhancing. I felt placid, and passively dumbly happy; kind of stupid, and not really knowing what was going on around me). Just awful. Maybe it gets better with time (adaption), but because I got lost on my way home from work (the confusion), that actually concerned me quite a lot. I ditched the banana diet.

So maybe it just comes down to bad sources, whereas people from tropical climates have access to better fruits? Like Thailand?

 

[squanch]

I actually did the whole fruitarian 80/10/10 thing for around 6 month. Mainly dates and bananas + some lettuce and whatever other fruit was available.
I lost weight despite eating 3000-4000kcal every day, was freezing cold most of the time, skin looked horrible, libido was nonexistent...

I think the main problems eating like that would be:
- high liquids (mainly because of the extra water in your shakes, without shakes it's almost impossible to eat that many fruits)
- low fat soluble vitamins
- very low zinc (which together with the low fat intake, I think leads to the somewhat feminine way a lot of longterm raw vegan men look and act. My libido was pretty much completely gone and I felt very weak and "unmanly" for a lack of better words)
- low protein (sure, you might be able to survive on <50g protein per day, but there's a reason why most raw vegans look like they just escaped from auschwitz)

I guess you could make it work with ridiculously high calories, supplements, a warm climate etc. if you really want to, but I don't really see the point

 

[Xisca]

I live in the canary, and right now is the good momento to be fruitarian for a few weeks or months.
Some people spend their Winter here for this reason!
I know s.o. who eats fruit for 6 years now, and he eats one meal with 30 bananas, but he did it progressively.
He says he is fine, and he looks fine, he is not weak nor thin, and seems to have a balanced mood.
He eats some veggies for dinner. Eats some avocadoes but not much.

At the moment we have grapes, apples, plums and pears, and prickly pears, and also the last figs.
So it is varied.
Ho, the mangoes start too!
Then will come guava son.
In gardens you find guava fresa, pitanga. Sometimes sold in markets.
Many tropicla fruits are not sold because of short shelf lifes.

We have lemons and oranges will be great soon.
And I was about to forget about the great papayas.
And I have bought today melón and wáter melón.
But my big melón cost me 5€ as it is a very big one, and 3€ per kg for mangoes.

At home I have tree tomato, a fruit, and a sort of african mini papaya.
So it is varied, but not cheap.

I do eat a lot of fruits in autumn, but I am glad we have some fresh goat raw cheese too!
And avocadoes, and meat....
I can find macadamia late in the year, local too.
Chestnuts and almonds if you want....

 

[tara]

I finally got a round to listening to a few of his videos, starting with this one. Been meaning to since Jennifer started reporting such success.

Whether he agrees with RP or not, his argumentation style makes Mercola and Asprey look like Nobel prizes in medicine.

I reacted a bit like that too. He has more of a stream-of-consciousness, rambling and bombastic style, not always strong on logic (not to mention politics I wouldn't vote for, though I'm don't think this is the place to go into details on this). But after a while I started figuring that doesn't necessarily prevent him from having some useful areas of expertise. He's made lots of long videos - I stopped comparing him with people making polished performances, started thinking of his videos as just being very open about everything going through his head while he's addressing particular cases, and started sifting for the actual content. But that's 'cause I was already curious - otherwise I'd have rejected it pretty quickly.

basically everything ray peat does excluding muscle meats and dairy.

I don't think he's big on eggs, shellfish, liver and collagen, either. He made the point (in other videos) that pasteurising milk destroys some of the digestive enzymes, and that makes them even harder to use.

Similar: no Pufas, no soy, - estrogen, no tryptophan, + progesterone (females), + testosterone (males), + magnesium, - phosphorus, + calcium

I did hear him recommending a bit of hemp oil or other oil in a particular case, but I don't think he's suggesting lots of PUFA in general.

Some of the things I picked up from Morse that seem to make sense to me and also to be largely consistent with Peat:

• The environment in which cells are maintained is very important for their efficient functioning. Out of balance environment damages cells.
• Diet is important, and attending to this is a central part of maintaining and restoring good health.
• Systemic pH is important. The by products of meat, grains, proteins are acidic (eg too much phosphorus), and so are the by products of metabolism (I don't think this is controversial - CO2 and lactic acid are both acidic).
• It is important to balance these acids adequately with alkaline minerals.
• The wastes have to be removed effectively, or they block up the system and impede proper functioning in many systems.
• Pharmaceuticals that suppress symptoms can often cause more harm than good, and just add to the burden that needs to be removed.
• Most conditions can be improved by attending to nutrition and and waste removal. Sometimes diet alone is too slow, and stronger tactics are needed.
• How the body manages water is important. There are conditions in which drinking lots more water will do more harm than good, including edemic states.
• Fresh ripe fruit is relatively easy to digest.
• It's helpful to not overburden a healing body with foods that are hard to digest.
• Cleaning out the GI tract is important for effective removal of wastes.
• It's important to get rid of major parasites.
• Raw fruits are generally preferable to starchy foods, esp. when the blood sugar control system is struggling.
• Overdoing sulphurous veges can be a burden.
• A bit of veges can be OK, but they are generally hard to digest and not as useful as fruits.
• There are situation in which boosting thyroid function with 'glandulars' can be useful/necessary (a rare exception to the mainly raw vegan advice).
• Build up of wastes in tissues can have fibrotic effects; fibrosis leads to problems.
• Observing the eye (iris) can give an indicator of the health of tissues, and a way to confirm improvements over time.

causes and remedies for ill-health
His main area of focus, that he sees as the key to remedying a myriad of conditions, is the elimination of acidic wastes via the lymphatic system. The lymphatic circulation can get overwhelmed and sluggish if it has to deal with too much waste and not enough alkaline input to counter the acids.
Also, the kidney need to be filtering out the wastes effectively, so weak kidneys need to be strengthened. You can tell that the kidneys are filtering out acidic wastes if there is visible sediment in the pee. He counts the skin as the third kidney, and skin breakouts in response to starting to cleanup are not surprising.
Weak adrenal glands also contribute to trouble.
In his view a great many conditions can be attributed to or worsened by failure of lymph to adequately remove acidic waste. These include pain, edemas, pressure in the head (my special interest:)), skin conditions, cancers, high (and related low) blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and many many more.

diet recommendations
For general health, he might think 70-80% raw fruits would be pretty good. But when serious conditions are developing or dominating, getting rid of the waste is the top priority, and so eating only raw fruits (with some specific herbal potions for particular purposes) during this period can be necessary. Berries and melons have some compounds that tend to be particularly helpful for cleaning up, so good to especially eat lots of them. He suggests more or less of some kinds of fruits depending on the condition (eg less acidic for rheumatoid arthritis).
He also uses some specific herbs for particular purposes, such as strengthening particular organs, eliminating parasites, cleaning out the gut.

My response so far overall is to imagine that lots of fresh ripe fruit is probably good for many people (but not necessarily every one in all states), and that some people might benefit from a period of more intensive fruit-fasting for a limited period. I'm open to the possibility that he has some useful experience with herbal potions. He claims to have had many successes, and Jenifer reports major improvements for herself. I'm not convinced that continuous fruitarian diets would make sense for every one - I suspect hat at least some animal products are helpful for building. It also seems that some people can digest and do well on milk of various kinds, so I don't at this stage buy his claims that it is not food for adult humans (and I don't think his arguments for this that I've heard so far are sound). But I do think milk can be hard for some of us to deal with, and it's clear that some people fare bettter without it.

question
The part that I'm now puzzled and curious about, and I'd be delighted if @Jennifer (local expert:)) or someone could explain how you see it, is how he thinks the wastes being carried away by the lymph vessels get to the kidneys for filtering and excretion? He says the standard model of the lymph being drained back into the blood is ridiculous, because the blood needs to be alkaline and the lymph is full of acidic wastes. (Uncontroversially, blood pH should be between 7.35 - 7.45; much outside that is very quickly dangerous.) I know there are lots of controversies in physiology, but objections to standard anatomy seem less common. Isn't the standard model of where the lymph goes established by reliable methods? Does Robert Morse explain how he thinks the lymph/acidic waste gets to the kidneys instead? I've seen several videos, but there are hundreds more - has he got a diagram or something of his alternative picture of lymph flow?

And I was about to forget about the great papayas.

drool ...

 

[Tarmander]

I dont think his philosophy is like Peat at all. He sounds like most alternative medicine/health food store people...talks about detox, healing crises, getting the bad out so you can build up better. Just in the first 5 minutes he talks about some woman losing all her finger nails after starting to fast and eat raw fruit. He explained it as dumping the bad stuff so the good stuff could regrow. He has made the leap that the food is good, but the people are bad, and must then adapt to the food, because obviously the food is good.

These basic ideologies are dangerous. The key part of Peat that leads to the greatest shift in how you look at all this stuff, is that energy and structure are interdependent. Damaging your structure so that you can then rebuild that structure stronger just does not work. You get less energy, and weaker structure. When someone starts talking about detox and healing crises, turning your brain off will be the right move about 98% of the time.

 

[CKA]

Tarmander, what are your thoughts on autophagy?

 

[Travis]

I think Robert Morse is honest, but sees things more holistically than Ray Peat. His ideas tie more into Enderlein, Gerson, and Rife than the molecular biologists Ling, Szent-Giorgi, and Pauling that are Ray Peat's bailiwick. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Things like refined PUFA oil, grains, and soy are downright vilified by everyone these days. If I would have to pick one, I would choose soy. I think that soy has been politically attacked by the dairy and meat industries because of soy milk and tofu, and soy is probably only just as toxic as every other bean [kidney, fava, ect]. There can be high amounts of aluminum in processed soy.

Robert Morse seems like he gives most of his advice to sick people. Sick people need a different type of guidance and diet than healthy people. I find nothing wrong with Robert Morse's ideas, but I don't think that people should limit their knowledge of health to just Robert Morse.

 

[tara]

These basic ideologies are dangerous.

I suspect you are right, when applied applied blindly, especially in circumstances of serious depletion. And the people most drawn to follow such practices might be the ones who find restriction easy or attractive - ie the ones who are most likely to already be suffering from depletion.

But there might still be some sense in figuring out how to support the removal of toxins and the byproducts of metabolism, along with all the other things needed for good health. Maybe this could be the key factor for some people?

Certainly being aware that we need some alkaline minerals in our diet seems important to me.

 

[tara]

I think Robert Morse is honest, but sees things more holistically than Ray Peat.

It's not obvious to me from the videos that his views are more holistic than Peat's, but he does have a system-wide view including cell environment.

Robert Morse seems like he gives most of his advice to sick people. Sick people need a different type of guidance and diet than healthy people.

Yes. Not all sick people need the same thing to recover though, and that's where I think Morse's programme might be a bit simplistic - may be really useful (at least for a while) for some people, but not everyone.

Can't help thinking of Reams. He recognised the need for calcium and other alkaline minerals, but he also observed that some people's systems tended to be too alkaline, or had more or less difficulty using different foods, and thought diets should be individually tailored to address their current state.