Downsides Of Low Estrogens

[Waynish]

I wish I knew of an easy way to gauge daily status of estrogen and testosterone. Something simple like how many times you needed to pee. It would be very useful to know so one could adjust their supplements accordingly. Anyone know of a fool-proof and simple way to gauge this?

@sladerunner69 do you take pregnenolone or dhea? Perhaps you would benefit from stoking the fires of estrogen a touch?

Why assume that estrogen is at the root cause of your experience? Controlling it finely is probably not the answer.

 

[sladerunner69]

I have reduced my aspirin use to just once or twice a week - reserved for if I’m feeling particularly inflammed. After several months using a gram plus daily my body stopped hurting so much and I stopped feeling a constant need for it.

The AI excess joint pain I was experiencing a few weeks ago is basically gone now. I attribute this to halving all my AIs and also replacing my daily rationing of coconut oil with extra virgin olive oil. I was overdoing it with saturated fat, which was adding to inflammation and also driving my SHBG down. After a lot of thought and experimentation, I have decided the following agrees best with me: A low pufa diet <5g a day, plus moderate sfa intake via whole foods and maybe cooking with coconut oil, and 1 or 2 tbsp a day of good evoo. My mood also really lifted after a few days of evoo, colors become more vivid, and I felt more like myself again. Fwiw, I still feel saturated fat should make up the majority of calories from fat, but going all the way sfa did not feel good to me after 6 months of extremely avoiding mufa and pufa.

Interesting, I wonder if the reason you don't agree with very low pufa is simply because pufa raises/facilitates estrogen? I dare not raise my pufa intake, I have experienced so many nice effects from avoiding it. I will greatly reduce my intake of AI's , and hope I begin to notice a reduction in the discomfort. I have been experiencing nerve issues in addition to joint pain, which has slowly creeped up over the 4 or 5 years I have been peating so this may take some time to resolve...

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Interesting, I wonder if the reason you don't agree with very low pufa is simply because pufa raises/facilitates estrogen? I dare not raise my pufa intake, I have experienced so many nice effects from avoiding it. I will greatly reduce my intake of AI's , and hope I begin to notice a reduction in the discomfort. I have been experiencing nerve issues in addition to joint pain, which has slowly creeped up over the 4 or 5 years I have been peating so this may take some time to resolve...

I keep PUFA as low as I reasonably can, basically I just get a little from olive oil and occasionally I eat eggs or lean fish / seafood. My feel is this has more to do with not doing well on low MUFA than it has to do with any need for PUFA.

There are so many factors to weigh, but sure, getting estrogen up to a healthy level I feel has some part in this. I suspect the lowered homocysteine levels and lowered tsh that comes from a diet rich in both olive oil and sfa likely also partly explains why I am starting to feel better, that and the lowered LPS and increased insulin sensitivity that comes from olive oil consumption.

Another thing I am considering is that salicylates intake is known to raise serum creatinine levels / and lower the rate of elimination by the kidneys. The serum levels of creatinine correlate highly with homocysteine, so I could see daily aspirin use (especially high dose) inadvertently contributing to inflammation. To make matters worse (potentially), aspirin has been shown to block the homocysteine lowering effects of b vitamins. The aspirin induced inflammation likely would be more noticeable on the days you don't take aspirin, kind of creating a vicious cycle where you think you must really need more aspirin to simply feel normal. I'm not saying this would be a problem for everyone, however I do think a perfect inflammatory storm is possible if one is Peating without a good respect for context: excess SFA raising inflammation (lps), high sugar putting extra load on kidneys , niacinamide depleting methyl-pool and therefore raising homocysteine, and aspirin additionally putting extra load on the kidneys. The more I think about this, the more reason I can see to cycle niacinamide and aspirin use and to be mindful of the value of MUFA and to cycle times of high sugar intake.

Also, there is some evidence suggesting that estrogen levels correlate inversely with homocysteine levels... another reason one may not want to go crazy with the AIs.

Good luck with feeling better! Please report back in a couple of weeks. I'm interested to hear what your results are.

 

[sladerunner69]

I keep PUFA as low as I reasonably can, basically I just get a little from olive oil and occasionally I eat eggs or lean fish / seafood. My feel is this has more to do with not doing well on low MUFA than it has to do with any need for PUFA.

There are so many factors to weigh, but sure, getting estrogen up to a healthy level I feel has some part in this. I suspect the lowered homocysteine levels and lowered tsh that comes from a diet rich in both olive oil and sfa likely also partly explains why I am starting to feel better, that and the lowered LPS and increased insulin sensitivity that comes from olive oil consumption.

Another thing I am considering is that salicylates intake is known to raise serum creatinine levels / and lower the rate of elimination by the kidneys. The serum levels of creatinine correlate highly with homocysteine, so I could see daily aspirin use (especially high dose) inadvertently contributing to inflammation. To make matters worse (potentially), aspirin has been shown to block the homocysteine lowering effects of b vitamins. The aspirin induced inflammation likely would be more noticeable on the days you don't take aspirin, kind of creating a vicious cycle where you think you must really need more aspirin to simply feel normal. I'm not saying this would be a problem for everyone, however I do think a perfect inflammatory storm is possible if one is Peating without a good respect for context: excess SFA raising inflammation (lps), high sugar putting extra load on kidneys , niacinamide depleting methyl-pool and therefore raising homocysteine, and aspirin additionally putting extra load on the kidneys. The more I think about this, the more reason I can see to cycle niacinamide and aspirin use and to be mindful of the value of MUFA and to cycle times of high sugar intake.

Also, there is some evidence suggesting that estrogen levels correlate inversely with homocysteine levels... another reason one may not want to go crazy with the AIs.

Good luck with feeling better! Please report back in a couple of weeks. I'm interested to hear what your results are.

Intersting, you have certainly thought a lot about our issue here. I am curious though where you found that sugar puts an extra load on the kidneys? Also I was about to take some aspirin before I read this, getting ready to lay down and sleep. I have been feeling slightly more discomfort and pain today than yesterday, and I have not had aspirin since the day before last. So I have been worried about how I could feel even maybe slightly worse when I have been cutting back on the aspirin, but I suppose your explanation is reasonable- although I must attest that I have read little to nothing about cysteines. I do take niacinamide once or twice per day and I also take aspirin daily as well, and have probably been doing that for years now, which again does line up with your theory here because my discomfort and joints seem to have gotten gradually progressively worse, tot he point where now I want it to be gone.

Towards that end I guess I have two options: I can stop taking everything, all supplements including aspirin, fat soluble, niacinamide, and lower my caffeine intake for a couple weeks as wlel as any other supplements besides some magnesium before bed. Another option would be to eliminate only one thing at a time. So I would cut aspirin entirely for a couple weeks, and if it doesn't resolve I would cut niacinamide entirely and just go from there. This method would seem to be more complicated and require a more active role of documentation and track on my part. I could even try to eat less sugar total for two weeks, but I think I would want to separate that from the supplements to see the varying effects.

Furthermore, I do suffer from post-finasteride syndrome which I have been trying to heal from since 2011. I am mostly improved, but not where I would like to be. The issues I am having may also be related to having less androgens and less gaba thanks to the effects of the poison finasteride, although I am beginning to grow confident that very low estrogen over long term is the primary contributor to nerve/joint discomfort I have been having.

So then in addition to cutting aspirin and niacinamide, what do you think about caffeine, sugar, and magnesium, Captain?

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Intersting, you have certainly thought a lot about our issue here. I am curious though where you found that sugar puts an extra load on the kidneys? Also I was about to take some aspirin before I read this, getting ready to lay down and sleep. I have been feeling slightly more discomfort and pain today than yesterday, and I have not had aspirin since the day before last. So I have been worried about how I could feel even maybe slightly worse when I have been cutting back on the aspirin, but I suppose your explanation is reasonable- although I must attest that I have read little to nothing about cysteines. I do take niacinamide once or twice per day and I also take aspirin daily as well, and have probably been doing that for years now, which again does line up with your theory here because my discomfort and joints seem to have gotten gradually progressively worse, tot he point where now I want it to be gone.

Towards that end I guess I have two options: I can stop taking everything, all supplements including aspirin, fat soluble, niacinamide, and lower my caffeine intake for a couple weeks as wlel as any other supplements besides some magnesium before bed. Another option would be to eliminate only one thing at a time. So I would cut aspirin entirely for a couple weeks, and if it doesn't resolve I would cut niacinamide entirely and just go from there. This method would seem to be more complicated and require a more active role of documentation and track on my part. I could even try to eat less sugar total for two weeks, but I think I would want to separate that from the supplements to see the varying effects.

Furthermore, I do suffer from post-finasteride syndrome which I have been trying to heal from since 2011. I am mostly improved, but not where I would like to be. The issues I am having may also be related to having less androgens and less gaba thanks to the effects of the poison finasteride, although I am beginning to grow confident that very low estrogen over long term is the primary contributor to nerve/joint discomfort I have been having.

So then in addition to cutting aspirin and niacinamide, what do you think about caffeine, sugar, and magnesium, Captain?

Re sugar and kidneys: my crude interpretation of available literature is that kidneys will become preoccupied filtering insulin, and therefore rate of creatinine level clearance goes down, which (by a not understood mechanism) raises homocysteine. If all of your methyl donors are being depleted from excessive niacinamide use, and aspirin is further blocking the uptake of b vitamins needed for lowering homocysteine, then homocysteine has very little of anything available to keep it in check. Possibly supplementing with Betaine (tri-methylglycine) would be a useful measure while you take the break from aspirin and niacinamide, this should help to raise your clearance rate of homocysteine and speed up your recovery. If this is indeed a methylation issue, you would notice betaine's effects very clearly within just a few days of supplementing (so it could also be useful simply to self diagnose).

If your issue is related to what I think I had then yea: I would definitely take a month off from niacinamide and aspirin. As far as sugar (and starch), sugar from only whole fruit forms, o.j. in moderation, and starches consumed always with fats and protein (to manage insulin spike), limited to just the morning. If you can go higher sugar / starch in morning, and higher protein at night - this theoretically would help kidneys reset (as less of a constant insulin load is being placed on them). I know that limiting sugar intake is not the RP ideal - but if you want to recover from potential homocysteine deregulation - it is likely for the best to keep your insulin lower than usual - for a couple months. If you simply don't want to take a break from sugar, then the following should be valuable tools to re-balance your insulin system: olive oil, berberine, bitter-melon. Caffeine in the form of coffee, 2 to 3 cups a day should not be enough to raise homocysteine substantially, and magnesium you always want to get a lot of. Similar to sugar, you may want to lower chloride intake for a while as it likely also will interfere with kidney function.. if you are concerned you need to keep getting sodium then baking soda would be a good alternative. I would be sure to get plenty of calcium with the magnesium. That is the other thing, sugar pulls calcium out of the bones - and also limits the re-absorption of calcium in the kidneys, which obviously can lead to an imbalance of acidity (at a skeletal level I would imagine). If I were to just take plain table sugar and water all day, I know for a fact my joints and everything feel terrible the next day. Obviously that is extreme, but it seems clear to me that added sugar should be limited if you are already experiencing joint pain. Also it is important to remember that homocysteine is essential to many bodily functions, so this advice need not be taken to any extreme, just like thyroid you don't want it too high or too low. The main thing, is from years of subtle imbalance, slightly depleted methyl donors, slightly compromised transsulferation, and slightly compromised kidney clearance rates - there can be a cumulative effect where suddenly you start feeling like crap, thankfully a short break to let things reset / heal should be all you need - unless you have reached some kind of chronic state which I doubt as I think the RP way is overall pretty safe. Another interesting thing I am considering: Nitric Oxide, which we all know is not encouraged in the RP world - seems to be largely responsible for the kidney's glomerular filtration rate, while this is crude, within a certain range one can say that: higher NO = higher prostaglandin = higher GFR = lower homocysteine... So it may also be possible that you have taken the NO reduction too far as well - and that is contributing here. Aspirin will lower prostaglandin and is shown to decease the GFR. Do you sometimes wake up with lower back pain, do you feel funny if you lay on your stomach for a long time, if you feel any pain radiating from your kidney area - likely you have what I had, this pain started to go away drastically once I stopped megadosing aspirin.

By the way, I have not turned anti-aspirin. I still love it. But I came to realize it is best taken occasionally, a couple times a week for those times where nothing else is helping with pain. I now think it is a bit extreme to take daily, and daily use can indirectly perpetuate the longevity of pain. Getting breaks in allows b vitamins, blood clotting, and kidneys to do what they need to do. I think if you are in the early stages of pufa depletion then taking it daily is a lot more valuable, but over time the daily use can start causing other issues.

edit: Oh yeah, and don't forget the value of getting plenty of b vitamins (sans niacin/niacinamide)

P.S. - check this out:
Novel Clinical Evidence of an Association between Homocysteine and Insulin Resistance in Patients with Hypothyroidism or Subclinical Hypothyroidism

 

[lollipop]

By the way, I have not turned anti-aspirin. I still love it. But I came to realize it is best taken occasionally, a couple times a week for those times where nothing else is helping with pain. I now think it is a bit extreme to take daily, and daily use can indirectly perpetuate the longevity of pain. Getting breaks in allows b vitamins, blood clotting, and kidneys to do what they need to do. I think if you are in the early stages of pufa depletion then taking it daily is a lot more valuable, but over time the daily use can start causing other issues.

This is sound and the same conclusions I have come to over time.

 

[Peatogenic]

Interesting, out of all the symptoms I have noticed the emotionless one...it was nice in some ways, and not in others. I didn't have any issues on long-term Androsterone, but after I added fat soluble vitamins I must have reached a threshold.

 

[danishispsychic]

when i pushed my progesterone up to a sky high number with the " progesterone is so good for you thing" and my estrogen got waaaay low- i felt like my whole body was shriveling up like a raisin- because it was. i dont even touch progesterone anymore. borax and iodine did way more for me.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

when i pushed my progesterone up to a sky high number with the " progesterone is so good for you thing" and my estrogen got waaaay low- i felt like my whole body was shriveling up like a raisin- because it was. i dont even touch progesterone anymore. borax and iodine did way more for me.

Likewise. Since last week when I stopped taking daily 25mg pregnenolone with my 5mg dhea, and started taking 10mg daily boron; my joints, libido and level of happiness have all returned to youthful levels. I think pregnenolone becoming less available as we age may be something of a myth, the more I dug around it seems that just more does get used for cortisol. Therefore I think re-wiring your cortisol response and enabling free test via boron and dhea is far more valuable then taking preg or prog, while the cortisol steal concept has been shown to not be completely true - as certain pools are not available to the adrenals - I think upping preg still works towards increasing more cortisol and estrogen ratio to dhea... dhea really seems to be the indisputable hormone which lowers significantly with age: so directly suplementing dhea will help much more to stabilize the ratio. Boron stabilizes this as well as lowers high shbg. While shbg does have an important role in the body, so does dht which will be stimulated through boron and its lowering of shbg. My 2 cents

 

[sebastian_r]

the_estrogen_handbook - steroids
Too low estrogen side effects

• Dry skin/lips
• Painful joints
• Feeling of dehydration
• Loss of libido
• Erectile Dysfunction
• Loss of sensitivity
• Dry glans (penis)
• White glans
• Loss of girth
• Irritability/Mood swings
• Crying for no reason
• DHT rage (aggression you take out on others)
• Dull orgasm
• Hesitation just before urinating
• Night sweats
• Loss of appetite
• Constant fatigue
• Lethargy
• Constipation (due to dehydration)
• Diuretic effect (pissing more water than you are consuming)
• Itchy scalp
• Obsessive thoughts

I found estrogen / estradiol to be by far the hardest hormone to manage in the male body.
Neither low nor high estradiol is something I want.
On low estradiol I get almost the full list of side effects mentioned above.
On high estradiol I get some minor side-effects, but feel good.
The only time low estradiol is halfway endurable for me is when it's caused by high DHT.
Low makes way more problems than high for me. But I want neither of it.

 

[danishispsychic]

Likewise. Since last week when I stopped taking daily 25mg pregnenolone with my 5mg dhea, and started taking 10mg daily boron; my joints, libido and level of happiness have all returned to youthful levels. I think pregnenolone becoming less available as we age may be something of a myth, the more I dug around it seems that just more does get used for cortisol. Therefore I think re-wiring your cortisol response and enabling free test via boron and dhea is far more valuable then taking preg or prog, while the cortisol steal concept has been shown to not be completely true - as certain pools are not available to the adrenals - I think upping preg still works towards increasing more cortisol and estrogen ratio to dhea... dhea really seems to be the indisputable hormone which lowers significantly with age: so directly suplementing dhea will help much more to stabilize the ratio. Boron stabilizes this as well as lowers high shbg. While shbg does have an important role in the body, so does dht which will be stimulated through boron and its lowering of shbg. My 2 cents

Totes agree on all of that. For me, making a lemonade or yellow red bull with some " borax water " or a boron cap added is making me happy ( er ) I am happy to not be doing progesterone at all .

 

[Kartoffel]

On low estradiol I get almost the full list of side effects mentioned above.
On high estradiol I get some minor side-effects, but feel good.

How exactely do you know how you feel on low and high estradiol? I mean do you measure it every other day and see how you feel?

 

[artemis]

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jd...81w-CgBN9-901OxKygz4SL4lmAXH4whFlEkHekPGt2pVs

This article explains one major downside: your body needs estrogen to support normal glucose metabolism. I believe this is one of the factors which caused me to develop Type1 diabetes about 5 months into Peating. After reading Peat, I decided to stop taking estrogen (had been on it since a hysterectomy several years before) and start taking progesterone. I'm thinking now that wasn't such a good idea.

 

[Waynish]

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jd...81w-CgBN9-901OxKygz4SL4lmAXH4whFlEkHekPGt2pVs

This article explains one major downside: your body needs estrogen to support normal glucose metabolism. I believe this is one of the factors which caused me to develop Type1 diabetes about 5 months into Peating. After reading Peat, I decided to stop taking estrogen (had been on it since a hysterectomy several years before) and start taking progesterone. I'm thinking now that wasn't such a good idea.

Yes Ray's view seems closer to "some hormones good and some hormones bad" than it is to treating every biological structure as if it has purpose and utility.

 

[Cameron]

Not sure what you are asking for, but I'd drop estroban and if using it again I'd not do it daily. I just used it again after a very long time off, during the first week the results got better and better, , mood, energy and the rest were excellent, erection size went up , then the positive effects disappeared. WBM were also too potent at times, I don't think I have overblown estrogenic activity so I probably don't need these compounds that much.

I use 8 drops everyother day keeps positive results easily can be overdone

 

[Kartoffel]

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jd...81w-CgBN9-901OxKygz4SL4lmAXH4whFlEkHekPGt2pVs

This article explains one major downside: your body needs estrogen to support normal glucose metabolism. I believe this is one of the factors which caused me to develop Type1 diabetes about 5 months into Peating. After reading Peat, I decided to stop taking estrogen (had been on it since a hysterectomy several years before) and start taking progesterone. I'm thinking now that wasn't such a good idea.

So, you are saying that discontinuing synthetic estrogen, and starting natural progesterone (progest-E I assume) gave you type1 diabetes within five months? I try to keep an open mind and always entertain any possibility, but this sounds very implausible.

 

[artemis]

So, you are saying that discontinuing synthetic estrogen, and starting natural progesterone (progest-E I assume) gave you type1 diabetes within five months? I try to keep an open mind and always entertain any possibility, but this sounds very implausible.

Yes, definitely implausible. Yet this is what happened. My doctors don't know what to make of it, either. I did say I believe it was a factor, maybe not the sole cause. I also changed my diet a lot at the same time, to a typical Peat diet (much more carbohydrates than I had ever consumed before). Sometimes I think I just made too many changes at once.

 

[sladerunner69]

I keep PUFA as low as I reasonably can, basically I just get a little from olive oil and occasionally I eat eggs or lean fish / seafood. My feel is this has more to do with not doing well on low MUFA than it has to do with any need for PUFA.

There are so many factors to weigh, but sure, getting estrogen up to a healthy level I feel has some part in this. I suspect the lowered homocysteine levels and lowered tsh that comes from a diet rich in both olive oil and sfa likely also partly explains why I am starting to feel better, that and the lowered LPS and increased insulin sensitivity that comes from olive oil consumption.

Another thing I am considering is that salicylates intake is known to raise serum creatinine levels / and lower the rate of elimination by the kidneys. The serum levels of creatinine correlate highly with homocysteine, so I could see daily aspirin use (especially high dose) inadvertently contributing to inflammation. To make matters worse (potentially), aspirin has been shown to block the homocysteine lowering effects of b vitamins. The aspirin induced inflammation likely would be more noticeable on the days you don't take aspirin, kind of creating a vicious cycle where you think you must really need more aspirin to simply feel normal. I'm not saying this would be a problem for everyone, however I do think a perfect inflammatory storm is possible if one is Peating without a good respect for context: excess SFA raising inflammation (lps), high sugar putting extra load on kidneys , niacinamide depleting methyl-pool and therefore raising homocysteine, and aspirin additionally putting extra load on the kidneys. The more I think about this, the more reason I can see to cycle niacinamide and aspirin use and to be mindful of the value of MUFA and to cycle times of high sugar intake.

Also, there is some evidence suggesting that estrogen levels correlate inversely with homocysteine levels... another reason one may not want to go crazy with the AIs.

Good luck with feeling better! Please report back in a couple of weeks. I'm interested to hear what your results are.

Hi Captain. Still around these days? I was curious what you thought of this theory of yours here. I have been struggling with inflammation of my back and for a long time took both the aspirin and niacinamide you discussed here.

 

[Kunstruct]

when i pushed my progesterone up to a sky high number with the " progesterone is so good for you thing" and my estrogen got waaaay low- i felt like my whole body was shriveling up like a raisin- because it was. i dont even touch progesterone anymore. borax and iodine did way more for me.

How much iodine in mcg are you taking?

 

[Kunstruct]

Loss of muscle size and strength as well? Interesting. IS that from reduced Nitric Oxide release? After PEating and taking measures too lower NO and serotonin I have not gotten pumps at the gym, which I am okay with.

It always fascinated me how many people talk about muscles without being clear at all.
In reality not getting a pump at the gym kind of puts many away from the gym or induces another type of stress or slight depression that in which you see people saying they are not making gains after months of lifting at the gym.
This may not be easy to understand by the person that does not care about muscles (actually quite impossible to understand) or has not deliberately attempted to do that or could not do that. But the same person could see daily at the same time persons that are workout with weights and grow, so that messes up with your mind.

I am not sure how many people are working out with weights with a clear goal of adding muscle mass and how many wanna just touch the machines here and there and go on thread-mill for a lot of time to lose the fat and say they now got muscles. This second category is actually quite high even if this not the one advertised all over social media, but this is not really the category of people looking for a pump or getting satisfaction from squatting decently heavy weights.

In reality those working out seriously with weights do not really appreciate not getting a pump and on top of that that pump can make someone feel really good, it's really hard to even talk about it if it wasn't felt by someone, it can boost confidence and even raise happiness to get serious pump from a heavy workout especially when this happens several times a week.
Doing a heavy workout with zero pump it is almost hard to even do, muscles feel "wobbly" and often after a workout like that you can easily look smaller than before the workout and really is not physiologically raising one's mood.

So heavy pumps and a state of feeling good, confident and happy, enjoying music, food, etc is very well possible, having massive pumps does not mean you are dominate by serotonin.