Downsides Of Low Estrogens

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This study is pretty simple and easy to read.
Gonadal Steroids and Body Composition, Strength, and Sexual Function in Men
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1206168

It looks clear that a sweet spot exists with AIs combined with T therapy, and going over that you likely end up seeing a lot of the same symptoms associated with high estrogen (abdominal weight, sexual dysfunction etc). I'm not sure how this compares with taking DHEA and things like Zinc / Olive Leaf - but there must be some degree of similarity.
 

Arrade

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This study is pretty simple and easy to read.
Gonadal Steroids and Body Composition, Strength, and Sexual Function in Men
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1206168

It looks clear that a sweet spot exists with AIs combined with T therapy, and going over that you likely end up seeing a lot of the same symptoms associated with high estrogen (abdominal weight, sexual dysfunction etc). I'm not sure how this compares with taking DHEA and things like Zinc / Olive Leaf - but there must be some degree of similarity.
I believe 15-20 estrogen is the sweet spot
 

benaoao

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End of the day there’s a sweet spot for each hormone, or a U-curve so to speak, because theres always an optimal range with a bit of room for error.

I think it’s nearly always starting with insulin resistance and in a society where people eat too much junk IR is leading to abnormal fat deposit. The opposite end of the spectrum is people who want to get abnormally lean. Side effects are undoubtedly very similar. Normalization of body fat, building some muscle mass while eating a whole food balanced diet (thanks to tools like cronometer) and a focus on stress reduction are going to be the most sustainable ways to go. Abnormal thyroid and cholesterol + hormonal metabolism are only adaptations of an unsustainable lifestyle. Band aids (pills) don’t fix the root cause. They can be helpful for a kickstart though.
 
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I'm talking about exemestane or letrozole... you seem kind of ignorant

ignorant on what ? all the information here on low estrogen bad is anecdotal because somebody "took something that lowered estrogen" and happened to have a negative effect, or studies looking at estrogen being low and not looking at anything else. i don't think that is ignorance, i'd say that is the study's ignorance to look at only one isolated hormone and determine it is the root cause of all problems. how can you possibly look at bone health and not consider calcium intake or vitamin D? what if the person didn't eat carbs for 6 months and didn't eat calcium, they probably would have low estrogen because their entire steroid production line has gone down, so they would have low estrogen and low progesterone, low testosterone, low everything, and they would have high PTH to cause the bones to leech calcium.. but we don't know those other bits of information

if you're talking about experiencing negative side effects of low estrogen and you are taking a pharmaceutical, that is an entirely different ballgame, there are side effects dealing with taking those that could be related to something else.....

what do you mean with "having an effect on the gut"? so you say this is pretty common or what...

i mean, if you take something internally that lowers estrogen and you have a negative effect, it's possible you have a bad gut and it's a poor gut reaction as opposed to estrogen being lowered as the cause of the effect, how ray says to put oily vitamins on your skin directly and rub it in as opposed to taking them internally due to poor gut reactions in some people, just a thought
 
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Helpful calculator for figuring out what the right dosing schedule should be depending on the half-life and your goals.
Drug Half-Life Calculator
 

Mauritio

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This study is pretty simple and easy to read.
Gonadal Steroids and Body Composition, Strength, and Sexual Function in Men
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1206168

It looks clear that a sweet spot exists with AIs combined with T therapy, and going over that you likely end up seeing a lot of the same symptoms associated with high estrogen (abdominal weight, sexual dysfunction etc). I'm not sure how this compares with taking DHEA and things like Zinc / Olive Leaf - but there must be some degree of similarity.

I am sure there is sweet spot the question just is how long can you maintain it. You might have to constantly adjust the dosage , since there is a number of factors that can constantly change ones hormones-status (bodyweight , amount intake of food/ nutrients, amount of sun/weightlifting/stress ....)
ignorant on what ? all the information here on low estrogen bad is anecdotal because somebody "took something that lowered estrogen" and happened to have a negative effect, or studies looking at estrogen being low and not looking at anything else. i don't think that is ignorance, i'd say that is the study's ignorance to look at only one isolated hormone and determine it is the root cause of all problems. how can you possibly look at bone health and not consider calcium intake or vitamin D? what if the person didn't eat carbs for 6 months and didn't eat calcium, they probably would have low estrogen because their entire steroid production line has gone down, so they would have low estrogen and low progesterone, low testosterone, low everything, and they would have high PTH to cause the bones to leech calcium.. but we don't know those other bits of information

if you're talking about experiencing negative side effects of low estrogen and you are taking a pharmaceutical, that is an entirely different ballgame, there are side effects dealing with taking those that could be related to something else.....



i mean, if you take something internally that lowers estrogen and you have a negative effect, it's possible you have a bad gut and it's a poor gut reaction as opposed to estrogen being lowered as the cause of the effect, how ray says to put oily vitamins on your skin directly and rub it in as opposed to taking them internally due to poor gut reactions in some people, just a thought

hmm might give it a shot to stop k2 for some time ...
 

Arrade

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I am sure there is sweet spot the question just is how long can you maintain it. You might have to constantly adjust the dosage , since there is a number of factors that can constantly change ones hormones-status (bodyweight , amount intake of food/ nutrients, amount of sun/weightlifting/stress ....)


hmm might give it a shot to stop k2 for some time ...
I never took any vitamins and my estrogen was at 17 which was perfect... maintain a healthy diet and don't get too fat you'll be fine
 

Mauritio

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Do you guys find it helpful to take Pregnenolone with Aromatase Inhibitors ? Since it can be converted to estrogen it could make up for some potentiall estrogen loss... I myself tried it and it didnt help . The dosage was pretty low (2-5mg) though.
 

Mauritio

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I never took any vitamins and my estrogen was at 17 which was perfect... maintain a healthy diet and don't get too fat you'll be fine
Could be ,could not be. A healthy diet is key for sure .
 
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Do you guys find it helpful to take Pregnenolone with Aromatase Inhibitors ? Since it can be converted to estrogen it could make up for some potentiall estrogen loss... I myself tried it and it didnt help me feel more. The dosage was pretty low (2-5mg) though.

I never noticed much on pregnenolone with or without AI, pregnenolone seemed to help me restore my cortisol reserves and to generally help me feel a little more relaxed, for myself I feel it mainly turned into progesterone / cortisol and didn't convert much in to dhea/test/estrogen if at all. I think I actually overdid it with pregnenolone at 50mg a day, a couple months in and I was feeling a bit sleepy all the time. I now take just around 10mg a day and feel better there. AIs and DHEA interplay I notice very much however.

As pregnenolone comes from cholesterol, and cholesterol is being abundantly consumed, e.g. 2 eggs a day, a serving of cheese or meat daily, is it really all that important to supplement pregnenolone? I'm not sure. I never noticed a lot from pregnenolone other than feeling foggy/sleepy if I took too much, which to me indicates that my body likely is pretty good at synthesizing what it needs. In truth I have noticed a whole lot more from taking 10mg of time release DHEA daily and so far am not sure if I need to take pregnenolone alongside it, but since I still have like a 3 year supply of the stuff I figure it can't hurt to take a little...

I am in my late 30s, and it appears as though pregnenolone supplementation would be most helpful to those 40+. I definitely feel it helped to balance out some adrenal imbalances I was going through though.

What do you folks think about the pros cons of dropping pregnenolone all-together and just taking DHEA? Would taking pregnenolone too-early in life cause the biosynthesis to down-regulate? Could taking pregnenolone in your 30s while the efficiency of biosynthesis has not dwindled all that much do more long-term harm than good??
 
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sladerunner69

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Helpful calculator for figuring out what the right dosing schedule should be depending on the half-life and your goals.
Drug Half-Life Calculator

Where does one look up the half life of something such as vit k2?

ignorant on what ? all the information here on low estrogen bad is anecdotal because somebody "took something that lowered estrogen" and happened to have a negative effect, or studies looking at estrogen being low and not looking at anything else. i don't think that is ignorance, i'd say that is the study's ignorance to look at only one isolated hormone and determine it is the root cause of all problems. how can you possibly look at bone health and not consider calcium intake or vitamin D? what if the person didn't eat carbs for 6 months and didn't eat calcium, they probably would have low estrogen because their entire steroid production line has gone down, so they would have low estrogen and low progesterone, low testosterone, low everything, and they would have high PTH to cause the bones to leech calcium.. but we don't know those other bits of information

if you're talking about experiencing negative side effects of low estrogen and you are taking a pharmaceutical, that is an entirely different ballgame, there are side effects dealing with taking those that could be related to something else.....

You raise a good point. I think we discussed something similar a year ago on that giant PFS thread... if we suppressed estrogen and cortisol too much the problems would begin to present themselves. However what we ended up saying about this is that estrogen might not be the only way. As you say, there are many factors in bone loss, and lowering estrogen without checking for other factors is not being thorough, assuming the scientists performing the studies were even enlightened enough to understand the roles of estrogen and thyroid (they are not of course). Thus, estrogen filling in to fufill the functions of thyroid and generative energy where those become incompetent. A personw ith very low thyroid function is going to need stress hormones to supplant energy in order to fufill basic needs and processes. In the context of poor health, low thyroid and low metabolism, low stress hormones such as energy would have a drastic impact on structural stability. If someone is in a generally better metabolic condition and supplied with more nutrients and such, then the role of estrogen and cortisol become less important, if at all.

In summary, lowering estrogen can be harmful if you don't have enough thyroid to fill in the gaps. Or so this was the conclusion of our discussion in that old PFS thread.

It is beginning to seem, however, that some minimum of estrogen and cortisol may exist, for me. Or perhaps my thyroid simply is not strong enough to fill in. I tend to think that estrogen does have a proper role or two, such as bone formation, because in a natural "paleo" context it would seem very uncommon for someone to have anywhere as low estrogen levels as we are achieving with various supplements and optimal dieting.
 

sladerunner69

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I never noticed much on pregnenolone with or without AI, pregnenolone seemed to help me restore my cortisol reserves and to generally help me feel a little more relaxed, for myself I feel it mainly turned into progesterone / cortisol and didn't convert much in to dhea/test/estrogen if at all. I think I actually overdid it with pregnenolone at 50mg a day, a couple months in and I was feeling a bit sleepy all the time. I now take just around 10mg a day and feel better there. AIs and DHEA interplay I notice very much however.

As pregnenolone comes from cholesterol, and cholesterol is being abundantly consumed, e.g. 2 eggs a day, a serving of cheese or meat daily, is it really all that important to supplement pregnenolone? I'm not sure. I never noticed a lot from pregnenolone other than feeling foggy/sleepy if I took too much, which to me indicates that my body likely is pretty good at synthesizing what it needs. In truth I have noticed a whole lot more from taking 10mg of time release DHEA daily and so far am not sure if I need to take pregnenolone alongside it, but since I still have like a 3 year supply of the stuff I figure it can't hurt to take a little...

I am in my late 30s, and it appears as though pregnenolone supplementation would be most helpful to those 40+. I definitely feel it helped to balance out some adrenal imbalances I was going through though.

What do you folks think about the pros cons of dropping pregnenolone all-together and just taking DHEA? Would taking pregnenolone too-early in life cause the biosynthesis to down-regulate? Could taking pregnenolone in your 30s while the efficiency of biosynthesis has not dwindled all that much do more long-term harm than good??

Pregnenolone synthesis is apparently not susceptible to downregulation, according to Ray and other big contributors on here. It is such a fundamental "building block" hormone, similar to thyroid, that the body will relatively quickly adapt to different levels. Ive gone months at a time taking 100mg per day, with more good effects than bad, to stop suddenly and only feel bit tired for one day or two.

I think dhea is more prone to converting to estrogen for sure.
 
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Where does one look up the half life of something such as vit k2?



You raise a good point. I think we discussed something similar a year ago on that giant PFS thread... if we suppressed estrogen and cortisol too much the problems would begin to present themselves. However what we ended up saying about this is that estrogen might not be the only way. As you say, there are many factors in bone loss, and lowering estrogen without checking for other factors is not being thorough, assuming the scientists performing the studies were even enlightened enough to understand the roles of estrogen and thyroid (they are not of course). Thus, estrogen filling in to fufill the functions of thyroid and generative energy where those become incompetent. A personw ith very low thyroid function is going to need stress hormones to supplant energy in order to fufill basic needs and processes. In the context of poor health, low thyroid and low metabolism, low stress hormones such as energy would have a drastic impact on structural stability. If someone is in a generally better metabolic condition and supplied with more nutrients and such, then the role of estrogen and cortisol become less important, if at all.

In summary, lowering estrogen can be harmful if you don't have enough thyroid to fill in the gaps. Or so this was the conclusion of our discussion in that old PFS thread.

It is beginning to seem, however, that some minimum of estrogen and cortisol may exist, for me. Or perhaps my thyroid simply is not strong enough to fill in. I tend to think that estrogen does have a proper role or two, such as bone formation, because in a natural "paleo" context it would seem very uncommon for someone to have anywhere as low estrogen levels as we are achieving with various supplements and optimal dieting.

ya exactly\.. if you have high prolactin.. low vitamin D.. you take AI.. yeah you might be lowering estrogen and having an effect.. but it's probably because of something else being off... estrogen isn't just going to be low for no reason... estrogen shouldn't be low normally, something else is causing it to be low.... maybe thyroid not there to fill the gaps like you said
 

Mauritio

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I never noticed much on pregnenolone with or without AI, pregnenolone seemed to help me restore my cortisol reserves and to generally help me feel a little more relaxed, for myself I feel it mainly turned into progesterone / cortisol and didn't convert much in to dhea/test/estrogen if at all. I think I actually overdid it with pregnenolone at 50mg a day, a couple months in and I was feeling a bit sleepy all the time. I now take just around 10mg a day and feel better there. AIs and DHEA interplay I notice very much however.

As pregnenolone comes from cholesterol, and cholesterol is being abundantly consumed, e.g. 2 eggs a day, a serving of cheese or meat daily, is it really all that important to supplement pregnenolone? I'm not sure. I never noticed a lot from pregnenolone other than feeling foggy/sleepy if I took too much, which to me indicates that my body likely is pretty good at synthesizing what it needs. In truth I have noticed a whole lot more from taking 10mg of time release DHEA daily and so far am not sure if I need to take pregnenolone alongside it, but since I still have like a 3 year supply of the stuff I figure it can't hurt to take a little...

I am in my late 30s, and it appears as though pregnenolone supplementation would be most helpful to those 40+. I definitely feel it helped to balance out some adrenal imbalances I was going through though.

What do you folks think about the pros cons of dropping pregnenolone all-together and just taking DHEA? Would taking pregnenolone too-early in life cause the biosynthesis to down-regulate? Could taking pregnenolone in your 30s while the efficiency of biosynthesis has not dwindled all that much do more long-term harm than good??

For me its actually the complete opposite. Pregnenolone seems to make me more andorgenic /anabolic and gives me more energy . DHEA seems to be converting too much to estrogen no matter how low the dosage is...
 
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@sladerunner69 examine.com is pretty decent for finding half-life info, or google, I don't know of a single resource for this.
 
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For me its actually the complete opposite. Pregnenolone seems to make me more andorgenic /anabolic and gives me more energy . DHEA seems to be converting too much to estrogen no matter how low the dosage is...

How old are you?
 
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It's possible you are getting an adrenaline boost from the pregnenolone steal... I am not sure why someone your age would be in need of DHEA - unless there is something specifically different about your health than the average health of others your age. I actually remember taking DHEA for a few weeks right around that same age, I was intrigued by it because I was feeling like my hormones were out of wack - I was not as masculine seeming as others my age - e.g. sparse facial hair and gynocomastia. The DHEA did not agree with me then, I felt no lift from it whatsoever and I think put more weight on shortly after taking it. But the real trouble there is I was 5 years or so in to being a Vegan, never getting enough calories, drinking in excess, and most likely in a hypothyroid state. If only I knew what I know now back then hah.
 

sladerunner69

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This study is pretty simple and easy to read.
Gonadal Steroids and Body Composition, Strength, and Sexual Function in Men
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1206168

It looks clear that a sweet spot exists with AIs combined with T therapy, and going over that you likely end up seeing a lot of the same symptoms associated with high estrogen (abdominal weight, sexual dysfunction etc). I'm not sure how this compares with taking DHEA and things like Zinc / Olive Leaf - but there must be some degree of similarity.

Are you still taking AI's such as aspirin? Has your neuropathy been resolved? I have been worried about this lately, I am getting these strange nerve excitations in random spots, and my joints are a bit sore especially in my neck, back, and wrists. I think 5 years of taking AI's has resulted in the low estrogen joint/nerve issues mentioned earlier in this thread. It used to not bother me as much as it does now, so I would just ignore it. But either im psychologically becoming more worried about it, or its physically becoming worse, and I want it to stop. I haven't take aspirin in a few days but I actually think nothing has changed much, maybe it's even getting worse. I am taking many supplements so maybe the only thing is to stop taking everything and see what happens. I surmise coffee could be over stimulating my nerves as well.
 
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Are you still taking AI's such as aspirin? Has your neuropathy been resolved? I have been worried about this lately, I am getting these strange nerve excitations in random spots, and my joints are a bit sore especially in my neck, back, and wrists. I think 5 years of taking AI's has resulted in the low estrogen joint/nerve issues mentioned earlier in this thread. It used to not bother me as much as it does now, so I would just ignore it. But either im psychologically becoming more worried about it, or its physically becoming worse, and I want it to stop. I haven't take aspirin in a few days but I actually think nothing has changed much, maybe it's even getting worse. I am taking many supplements so maybe the only thing is to stop taking everything and see what happens. I surmise coffee could be over stimulating my nerves as well.

I have reduced my aspirin use to just once or twice a week - reserved for if I’m feeling particularly inflammed. After several months using a gram plus daily my body stopped hurting so much and I stopped feeling a constant need for it.

The AI excess joint pain I was experiencing a few weeks ago is basically gone now. I attribute this to halving all my AIs and also replacing my daily rationing of coconut oil with extra virgin olive oil. I was overdoing it with saturated fat, which was adding to inflammation and also driving my SHBG down. After a lot of thought and experimentation, I have decided the following agrees best with me: A low pufa diet <5g a day, plus moderate sfa intake via whole foods and maybe cooking with coconut oil, and 1 or 2 tbsp a day of good evoo. My mood also really lifted after a few days of evoo, colors become more vivid, and I felt more like myself again. Fwiw, I still feel saturated fat should make up the majority of calories from fat, but going all the way sfa did not feel good to me after 6 months of extremely avoiding mufa and pufa.
 

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