Downsides Of Low Estrogens

[Arrade]

You definitely need a minimum amount of estrogen.. it's quite known among bodybuilders that lowering estrogen too much causes joint pain. Estrogen is actually 33% as anabolic as testosterone and does help build muscle.
Also at almost zero estro you will be emotionless and I've even cried several times while literally not thinking about anything, just tears down my face walking into church or in a restaurant

 

[Arrade]

the_estrogen_handbook - steroids
Too low estrogen side effects

• Dry skin/lips
• Painful joints
• Feeling of dehydration
• Loss of libido
• Erectile Dysfunction
• Loss of sensitivity
• Dry glans (penis)
• White glans
• Loss of girth
• Irritability/Mood swings
• Crying for no reason
• DHT rage (aggression you take out on others)
• Dull orgasm
• Hesitation just before urinating
• Night sweats
• Loss of appetite
• Constant fatigue
• Lethargy
• Constipation (due to dehydration)
• Diuretic effect (pissing more water than you are consuming)
• Itchy scalp
• Obsessive thoughts

 

[TheBeard]

the_estrogen_handbook - steroids
Too low estrogen side effects

• Dry skin/lips
• Painful joints
• Feeling of dehydration
• Loss of libido
• Erectile Dysfunction
• Loss of sensitivity
• Dry glans (penis)
• White glans
• Loss of girth
• Irritability/Mood swings
• Crying for no reason
• DHT rage (aggression you take out on others)
• Dull orgasm
• Hesitation just before urinating
• Night sweats
• Loss of appetite
• Constant fatigue
• Lethargy
• Constipation (due to dehydration)
• Diuretic effect (pissing more water than you are consuming)
• Itchy scalp
• Obsessive thoughts

I did an experiment and took Aromasin by itself at 25mg/day (I know, crazy high) for about a week, and then EOD for another week.

I experienced all the symptoms you mentioned EXCEPT low libido: my libido was better than ever and my erections rock hard, I would attribute this to the androgenic nature of the compound.

It messed with my joints, musculature and muscle water content pretty bad, so I dropped it.

After that I did a few rounds of rHGH, it seems to have partially repaired the damages

 

[Arrade]

I did an experiment and took Aromasin by itself at 25mg/day (I know, crazy high) for about a week, and then EOD for another week.

I experienced all the symptoms you mentioned EXCEPT low libido: my libido was better than ever and my erections rock hard, I would attribute this to the androgenic nature of the compound.

It messed with my joints, musculature and muscle water content pretty bad, so I dropped it.

After that I did a few rounds of rHGH, it seems to have partially repaired the damages

Yeah that dht boost will keep you up. I did 12.5 mg one day and my knees were shredded it was a very weird sensation. I loved low estro over high estro though, even though I'm hypothryoid my estro always stayed low and never had issues with having abs.

 

[General Orange]

how does this show low estrogen is bad? one study is showing supplementing with DHT, which is not recommended by ray anyway, which could have other effects outside of just lowering estrogen, or someone having osteoporosis, which i'm assuming is from not eating enough calcium or low vitamin D, which would be troublesome? i dont think these have to do with estrogen being low... it soudns like other stuff is going on

Aromatase expression in human bone has been demonstrated
in osteoblasts, chondrocytes, and fibroblasts (Table 1), where
they convert circulating androgens into estrogens (64).
In the bone of prepubertal children, the locally synthesized estradiol
stimulates epiphyseal maturation during the growth phase (65).
However, in both males and females, the massive pubertal
increase of estradiol leads to increased apoptosis of chondrocytes
in the epiphyseal plate, causing chondrocyte depletion and
hence, ossification and growth slow-down (66)
In adults, estradiol increases bone formation and mineralization and
reduces bone resorption, thus reducing the risk of osteoporosis
(64).
Therefore, it is not surprising that the incidence of
osteoporosis increases in postmenopausal women as their
ovaries lose estradiol synthetic capacity.

Extra-gonadal sites of estrogen biosynthesis and function BMB Rep. 2016; 49(9): 488-496

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I too have experienced the joint pains etc. My morning joint pains, shot up a few weeks ago, achy feet and knees and hands primarily, this would last for several hours, it was feeling as if I had walked 5 miles the day before -but in reality I was basically sedentary; this I initially suspected was from excess hgh from all the pro gaba supps I had been taking around bed time. I dropped those and did not experience any relief. Then I tried taking aspirin before bed, which did nothing to help, maybe made it worse. I had started dhea about a month before and generally was feeling increased energy / mood lift / leaning out; I was also taking many natural aromatase inhibitors - I did not understand at the time one could go too far with these. Admitedly I just assumed less estrogen and more testosterone the better - I did not think I could crush E extremely without being on prescription meds. Every day I was taking before bed, zinc, olive leaf extract, dried parsley (for the apigenin) - every morning I was also taking iodine, boron, selenium, pregnenolone, coffee, vitamin k, olive leaf extract, and parsley. The parsley and olive leaf combo is really effective - but later I found that each has a long enough half life to build up over time. I looked up symptoms of low estrogen and was surprised to see they are quite similar to the symptoms of high estrogen. I decided to limit my intake of aromatase inhibitors only to the morning at the same time I take dhea, and to take a break from nightly zinc, and to generally half my daily intake of all these things. I made this adjustment about 5 days ago and am happy to say that the morning aches have already decreased about 50%. The other observation is that when I was over-doing it with these aromatase inhibitors, I hit a point where everything began to go bland and gray - not like how feeling depressed or sad feels - more of an inability to feel much of anything emotionally. A sort of sterile state, it was weird and I did not like it! My current opinion is that aromatase inhibition should be structured to fluctuate diurnally leaving a little room for estrogen synthesis to occur over-night.

 

[sladerunner69]

I struggle with this as well. My joints and nerves hurt far more than they should, and it clearly get worse the days I'm taking vitamin k, aspirin, vitamin e, and other substances with strong inhibiting effect.

I struggle not taking these because the positive effect they have on my hair.... Oh whatever will I do. I suppose I will have to go bald.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I wish I knew of an easy way to gauge daily status of estrogen and testosterone. Something simple like how many times you needed to pee. It would be very useful to know so one could adjust their supplements accordingly. Anyone know of a fool-proof and simple way to gauge this?

@sladerunner69 do you take pregnenolone or dhea? Perhaps you would benefit from stoking the fires of estrogen a touch?

 

[Energizer]

I'll just echo What Peat said earlier in an email correspondence: I doubt the low estrogen theory.

 

[sladerunner69]

I wish I knew of an easy way to gauge daily status of estrogen and testosterone. Something simple like how many times you needed to pee. It would be very useful to know so one could adjust their supplements accordingly. Anyone know of a fool-proof and simple way to gauge this?

@sladerunner69 do you take pregnenolone or dhea? Perhaps you would benefit from stoking the fires of estrogen a touch?

Actually I have been experimenting with both again, yes. I used to take both in large quantities but was afraid of estrogen aromatization and would take aspirin, vitamin e, k, a, b vitamins, and everything else to prevent aromatization. I would feel dissociated and irritable with higher doses of both. I never took anything RX but still would become very irritable and distraught and emotionless at times. And I have been feeling discomfort in the back as well as random nerve tingles and pains in weird spots around the body. I think the nerve tingles get worse the more caffeine I consume, but it probably has to do with the supplements as well.

Now when I dose preg it's at most 20mg, and dhea I try not to take more than 2mg, both orally. This can be hard to judge but I do it by eye on my tongue.

Like I said, however, a part of me can't stop taking these things because they have helped me keep from going bald. I still have almost all of my hair and it looks great, wheras my younger brother of 3 years is much balder than I. This is proof enough for me that these supplements along with the Peat diet have prevented hairloss.

Ultimately though, I suppose I must strive to feel my best and I do not like having joint pain and nerve issues. I also think I could benefit from feeling more emotion and stress hormones.

I guess I should, as you put it, "stoke the fires" of estrogen. Tonight I will not take the 2 aspirin tablets I habitually take before bed, and I will put my vitamin E, vitamin k2 and more in the lower cabinet and not bring them out again until my problems have resided. Do you think I should quit the b6 as well? What about the caffeine? Gelatin? vitamin d? progesterone? All of these things could be having there own impact on me...

My low pufa diet along with bright light is likely more than enough to keep my estrogen low as it is.

I am beginning to understand why Peat doesn't care much for supplements, and now only uses caffeine and progesterone. I don't think he even uses aspirin anymore.

 

[General Orange]

When you over-inhibit estrogens via AI the deprived state of estrogens prevents them from inhibiting nitric oxide and prostaglandin e2 production in the microglia. This could cause joint and nerve pain. Also 'Estrogen receptors' are present in opioid-containing neurons and without enough estrogen these are less activated.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/art.21364

 

[Arrade]

When you over-inhibit estrogens via AI the deprived state of estrogens prevents them from inhibiting nitric oxide and prostaglandin e2 production in the microglia. This could cause joint and nerve pain. Also 'Estrogen receptors' are present in opioid-containing neurons and without enough estrogen these are less activated.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/art.21364

Bingo. You can definitely have too low estrogen

 

[mayweatherking]

Aromatase expression in human bone has been demonstrated
in osteoblasts, chondrocytes, and fibroblasts (Table 1), where
they convert circulating androgens into estrogens (64).
In the bone of prepubertal children, the locally synthesized estradiol
stimulates epiphyseal maturation during the growth phase (65).
However, in both males and females, the massive pubertal
increase of estradiol leads to increased apoptosis of chondrocytes
in the epiphyseal plate, causing chondrocyte depletion and
hence, ossification and growth slow-down (66)
In adults, estradiol increases bone formation and mineralization and
reduces bone resorption, thus reducing the risk of osteoporosis
(64).
Therefore, it is not surprising that the incidence of
osteoporosis increases in postmenopausal women as their
ovaries lose estradiol synthetic capacity.

Extra-gonadal sites of estrogen biosynthesis and function BMB Rep. 2016; 49(9): 488-496

Ok... so they are looking at one hormone and looking at one effect and not considering anything else? How can you limit bone resorption down to estradiol and not look at vitamin D status and calcium status and thyroid status and everything else this diet is about? Ray has an entire article on how low calcium is going to cause calcium to be leeched from the bones.... this doesn't even look at those factors before making these claims and just decides to look at estradiol and consider it is the only factor in calcium being leeched from bones... am i missing something else?

lots of claims here looking at only estrogen and not considering anything else... just because k2 lowers estrogen, doesn't mean that that is the only reason why something is bad... ? you could be having an effect to it in the gut which is more reasonable then, oh this lowers estrogen, and i'm having a bad effect to it, so that must mean that my estrogen is going down and that's why i'm having a negative reaction...

 

[Arrade]

Ok... so they are looking at one hormone and looking at one effect and not considering anything else? How can you limit bone resorption down to estradiol and not look at vitamin D status and calcium status and thyroid status and everything else this diet is about? Ray has an entire article on how low calcium is going to cause calcium to be leeched from the bones.... this doesn't even look at those factors before making these claims and just decides to look at estradiol and consider it is the only factor in calcium being leeched from bones... am i missing something else?

lots of claims here looking at only estrogen and not considering anything else... just because k2 lowers estrogen, doesn't mean that that is the only reason why something is bad... ? you could be having an effect to it in the gut which is more reasonable then, oh this lowers estrogen, and i'm having a bad effect to it, so that must mean that my estrogen is going down and that's why i'm having a negative reaction...

Lower your estrogen with an AI, change nothing else, just keep using an AI and you will get these problems.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I guess I should, as you put it, "stoke the fires" of estrogen. Tonight I will not take the 2 aspirin tablets I habitually take before bed, and I will put my vitamin E, vitamin k2 and more in the lower cabinet and not bring them out again until my problems have resided. Do you think I should quit the b6 as well? What about the caffeine? Gelatin? vitamin d? progesterone? All of these things could be having there own impact on me...

I would check the half life of every AI you are on, my opinion is the benefit comes from giving your system a few hours every day (early morning hours preferentially) where there is low serum AI - and generally try lowering the dose of everything - there is likely a synergy when taking multiple AIs where the whole is much more powerful than the sum. I wouldn't get off of the AIs completely, unless just as a temporary 2 or 3 week reset. If the half life is over 6 hours, consider taking just once a day in the morning. Over 8 hours, consider taking Monday through Friday in the morning. Over 12 hours, consider taking every other day or lowering your dose. Over 24 hours, consider 2 or 3 days a week. etc. Consider taking 3 days off from every AI etc every other weekend.

@mayweatherking I agree it would be foolish to blame this all 100% an estrogen deficiency and there are likely other things at play. I can say from experience that with proper nutrition, eating very Peaty and being sure to get plenty more calcium than phosphate etc that I hit a painful point with AIs + DHEA + Pregnenolone; which I seem to have rectified by lowering my dose and frequency of AIs. I am not hypothyroid, my vitamin D has been sufficient for many years, joint pain was a 2 out of 10 a month before starting DHEA, and then it went up to a 7 a couple weeks in to DHEA and the pain was highest in the morning - my understanding is estrogen production is highest in the few hours before waking - my guess is all the AIs I was taking before bed was limiting this production extremely and contributing to the pain. The AIs that I was on all are basically touted as being anti-inflammatory and certainly did not directly give me pain (hours after taking them I always felt better not worse), the painful effects combined with DHEA did not hit me until about 2 weeks in of continuous daily morning and night dosing.

 

[mayweatherking]

Lower your estrogen with an AI, change nothing else, just keep using an AI and you will get these problems.

Ok... a lot of AI that is from the peat world also does a lot of other stuff besides only AI... why dont you test your estrogen before and after using it to actually prove it... it makes no sense to just blindly blame estrogen without considering anything else just because it happens to lower estrogen... there are so many things that lower estrogen from the peat world....

better yet.. why dont you test all your blood work values and see what else is going on.. if everything else is perfect... then you could have an argument...

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Maybe we should just call the negative side effects we are describing Aromatase Inhibitor Excess instead of Estrogen Deficiency. I am not certain it is all mainly Estrogen deficiency, but I can say with certainty that going heavy on AI did not work well for me. Looking at the hundreds of threads on bodybuilding forums I can see these symptoms match completely with the downsides described by those who took too much prescription AI, they refer to it as "E2 Crash", "Crashed Estradiol" etc.

 

[Mauritio]

I too have experienced the joint pains etc. My morning joint pains, shot up a few weeks ago, achy feet and knees and hands primarily, this would last for several hours, it was feeling as if I had walked 5 miles the day before -but in reality I was basically sedentary; this I initially suspected was from excess hgh from all the pro gaba supps I had been taking around bed time. I dropped those and did not experience any relief. Then I tried taking aspirin before bed, which did nothing to help, maybe made it worse. I had started dhea about a month before and generally was feeling increased energy / mood lift / leaning out; I was also taking many natural aromatase inhibitors - I did not understand at the time one could go too far with these. Admitedly I just assumed less estrogen and more testosterone the better - I did not think I could crush E extremely without being on prescription meds. Every day I was taking before bed, zinc, olive leaf extract, dried parsley (for the apigenin) - every morning I was also taking iodine, boron, selenium, pregnenolone, coffee, vitamin k, olive leaf extract, and parsley. The parsley and olive leaf combo is really effective - but later I found that each has a long enough half life to build up over time. I looked up symptoms of low estrogen and was surprised to see they are quite similar to the symptoms of high estrogen. I decided to limit my intake of aromatase inhibitors only to the morning at the same time I take dhea, and to take a break from nightly zinc, and to generally half my daily intake of all these things. I made this adjustment about 5 days ago and am happy to say that the morning aches have already decreased about 50%. The other observation is that when I was over-doing it with these aromatase inhibitors, I hit a point where everything began to go bland and gray - not like how feeling depressed or sad feels - more of an inability to feel much of anything emotionally. A sort of sterile state, it was weird and I did not like it! My current opinion is that aromatase inhibition should be structured to fluctuate diurnally leaving a little room for estrogen synthesis to occur over-night.

I agree with most you said. I also have had the opinion :"the more test and the lower est , the better you feel" ...until i dropped my estrogen too low taking the fat solubles vitamins ,aspirin and 11ketodht.
And i dont agree with people saying there are no side effects of low estrogen . I experienced the well known joint problems :no pain , but lots of cracking here and there , i had super high body-temperature building up througout the day , i was sweating very easily and flushed for no reason . I also had more panic/ anxiety than usual and was much more prone to blushing...
On the up side i looked my best . My hair looked great , my face was super lean , my muscles were bigger without woking out. I attribute this too high testosterone, low estrogen.
Estrogen seems likes water in your hand -so hard to get a hold of ! So im still aiming for that sweet spot with minimal side effects and maximum benefits.

 

[Mauritio]

Ok... so they are looking at one hormone and looking at one effect and not considering anything else? How can you limit bone resorption down to estradiol and not look at vitamin D status and calcium status and thyroid status and everything else this diet is about? Ray has an entire article on how low calcium is going to cause calcium to be leeched from the bones.... this doesn't even look at those factors before making these claims and just decides to look at estradiol and consider it is the only factor in calcium being leeched from bones... am i missing something else?

lots of claims here looking at only estrogen and not considering anything else... just because k2 lowers estrogen, doesn't mean that that is the only reason why something is bad... ? you could be having an effect to it in the gut which is more reasonable then, oh this lowers estrogen, and i'm having a bad effect to it, so that must mean that my estrogen is going down and that's why i'm having a negative reaction...

what do you mean with "having an effect on the gut"? so you say this is pretty common or what...

 

[Arrade]

Ok... a lot of AI that is from the peat world also does a lot of other stuff besides only AI... why dont you test your estrogen before and after using it to actually prove it... it makes no sense to just blindly blame estrogen without considering anything else just because it happens to lower estrogen... there are so many things that lower estrogen from the peat world....

better yet.. why dont you test all your blood work values and see what else is going on.. if everything else is perfect... then you could have an argument...

I'm talking about exemestane or letrozole... you seem kind of ignorant