Depleting Serotonin With BCAA

[member 6316]

Why do I need taurine does it affect the serotonin in any way?
also why tyrosine and not l dopa ????

please i would appericatte if anyone can answer me asap I have very high lvls of serotonin and its making me crazy. I just want the answers to my above questions and other information that can help me and I will order them!!

btw does it matter what brand bcaa/ tyrosine i use?

and how much Decrease in Serotonin can I expect??

 

[member 6316]

also what about the other neurontransmitters? Like norepinephrine? doesent they get depleted cus of the bcaa? or just dopamin

 

[logicalscout]

Hi guys,

first post here (but I feel passionately about this topic). One sentence context, Have anxiety/depression and have been on SSRI for 8 years. I naturally have lower dopamine levels (motivation issues and depression since I was a kid).

Whenever I try BCAA (non-peptide bound amino acids) I have severe depressive symptoms (and sometimes suicidal), the effect is that pronounced I can't take them.
I also get this effect from Whey Protein Isolate (not as severe but still bad that I can't take two scoops at the same time), The leucine-to-tyrosine ratio is 2470mg/590mg in 1 scoop of Whey.

What is interesting is chicken breast does not have this acute effect. Why? I speculate it is rate of absorption.

I contacted Adel Moussa for advice (as I enjoy bodybuilding and the benefits of a high protein diet) who runs Suppversity and wrote the article:"The Neurotransmitter Depleting Effects of Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs) and Their Potential Ergolytic, Anxiogenic & Depressive Downstream Effects" (Sorry I can't post a link as this is my first post)

I asked if supplemental L-Tyrosine (in the amount 1:1 to L-Leucine) would help and he responded with:

"I doubt that extra tyrosine is going to help - the problem is due to too much competition, not too little tyrosine"

I did try it and it didn't seem to mitigate the effect (Though I read through the whole thread and the UV retina discussion regarding L-Tyrosine to Dopamine is interesting and allows me to do some more expirements).

Given I'm extremely sensitive to this effect (as I can't even process whey protein which already has L-Tyrosine), Does anyone have advice on how I can maintain hypothalamus dopamine levels? @haidut you mentioned Gelatin?
I have posted this same question on the ISSN (International Society for Sports Nutritions) facebook page but they are adamant that the BCAA depletion effect is not the contributing factor. For me it's very acute, prominent and reproducible.

 

[Catecholamine]

@haidut Can the anti-serotonergic effects of this improve digestion? I'm probably going to try this combination soon to see if it helps with my ADHD and energy levels, but I haven't been doing a great job pooping lately and am wondering if that's also linked to high serotonin.

Also, can tyrosine supplementation also improve thyroid function or thyroid hormone levels? I've seen some anecdotal accounts that tyrosine supplementation lowered TSH, but is it noticeable?

 

[Mito]

.

 

[member 6316]

I took bcaa with tyrosine right now . I have a headache ...... must be a war up there in my brain- how long do i need to take it until my serotonin lvls are gone?

 

[BrianF]

Might one see some positive effect on hair colour through this combo of BCCA and Tyrosine?

 

[grenade]

Theoretically, what would happen if someone were to limit there protein consumption to 2 liters/quarts a day and consume it with 6-8 tablespoons of gelatin? With only 1 gram of tryptophan and a whole tobe of other aminos, wouldn't there be some depletion going on?

 

[member 6316]

I have been taking tyrosine + bcaa for like 4 days now still got social anxiety.. I think bcaa do reduce serotonin but not as much as people make it out to be. useless.

 

[Progesterone]

Nutrients. 2017 Jun 22;9(7). pii: E642. doi: 10.3390/nu9070642.
A Branched-Chain Amino Acid-Related Metabolic Signature Characterizes Obese Adolescents with Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease.
Goffredo M1, Santoro N2, Tricò D3,4, Giannini C5,6, D'Adamo E7,8, Zhao H9, Peng G10, Yu X11, Lam TT12, Pierpont B13, Caprio S14, Herzog RI15.
Author information

Abstract
Dysregulation of several metabolite pathways, including branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs), are associated with Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLD) and insulin resistance in adults, while studies in youth reported conflicting results. We explored whether, independently of obesity and insulin resistance, obese adolescents with NAFLD display a metabolomic signature consistent with disturbances in amino acid and lipid metabolism. A total of 180 plasma metabolites were measured by a targeted metabolomic approach in 78 obese adolescents with (n = 30) or without (n = 48) NAFLD assessed by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). All subjects underwent an oral glucose tolerance test and subsets of patients underwent a two-step hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp and/or a second MRI after a 2.2 ± 0.8-year follow-up. Adolescents with NAFLD had higher plasma levels of valine (p = 0.02), isoleucine (p = 0.03), tryptophan (p = 0.02), and lysine (p = 0.02) after adjustment for confounding factors. Circulating BCAAs were negatively correlated with peripheral and hepatic insulin sensitivity. Furthermore, higher baseline valine levels predicted an increase in hepatic fat content (HFF) at follow-up (p = 0.01). These results indicate that a dysregulation of BCAA metabolism characterizes obese adolescents with NAFLD independently of obesity and insulin resistance and predict an increase in hepatic fat content over time.

KEYWORDS:
branched chain amino acids; insulin resistance; metabolomics; non


A Branched-Chain Amino Acid-Related Metabolic Signature Characterizes Obese Adolescents with Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Progesterone]

Oncotarget. 2017 Jun 12. doi: 10.18632/oncotarget.18447. [Epub ahead of print]
Evaluation of the branched-chain amino acid-to-tyrosine ratio prior to treatment as a prognostic predictor in patients with liver cirrhosis.
Ishikawa T1, Imai M1, Ko M1, Sato H1, Nozawa Y1, Sano T1, Iwanaga A1, Seki K1, Honma T1, Yoshida T1.
Author information

Abstract
This study evaluated whether the branched-chain amino acid-to-tyrosine ratio (BTR) is a prognostic predictive factor in patients with liver cirrhosis by determining the relationship of the BTR with event-free survival in a retrospective, observational cohort study. The medical records of patients with liver cirrhosis who visited our institution from February 2000 to May 2012 were examined. Events due to liver cirrhosis were defined as death, worsening of esophageal and/or gastric varices, hepatocellular carcinoma, and liver failure. The primary endpoint was the period from the date of BTR measurement until the first onset of these events. Event-free survival was compared between patients with BTR ≥ 4 and BTR < 4. Relationships between the BTR and other factors predicting prognosis were also examined. Event-free survival was evaluated in patients with and without branched-chain amino acid supplementation using propensity score matching. Significantly longer event-free survival was found in liver cirrhosis patients with BTR ≥ 4 (n = 425) compared with those with BTR < 4 (n = 105), and the BTR was associated with liver cirrhosis events. The BTR showed significant relationships with other predictive factors evaluated. In subcohorts matched by propensity score, branched-chain amino acid supplementation significantly improved event-free survival in patients with BTR <4. The BTR is clinically useful for predicting prognosis in liver cirrhosis patients. BCAA supplementation may be beneficial in those with BTR < 4.


Evaluation of the branched-chain amino acid-to-tyrosine ratio prior to treatment as a prognostic predictor in patients with liver cirrhosis. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Progesterone]

Medicine (Baltimore). 2017 Jun;96(24):e6580. doi: 10.1097/MD.0000000000006580.
Effects of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) on the progression of advanced liver disease: A Korean nationwide, multicenter, retrospective, observational, cohort study.
Park JG1, Tak WY, Park SY, Kweon YO, Jang SY, Lee YR, Bae SH, Jang JY, Kim DY, Lee JS, Suk KT, Kim IH, Lee HJ, Chung WJ, Jang BK, Suh JI,Heo J, Lee WK.
Author information

Abstract
Evidence of the potential benefits of long-term oral branched-chain amino acid (BCAA) supplementation in reducing the severity of liver disease is limited.Patients who were diagnosed with liver cirrhosis with a Child-Pugh (CP) score of 8-10 were included. The BCAA group consumed BCAAs daily for at least 6 months, and the control group consumed a diet without BCAA. We analyzed the improvements based on the model for end-stage liver disease (MELD) score, CP score, incidence of cirrhosis-related complications, and event-free survival over 2 years. Among the 867 recruited patients, 307 (166 in the BCAA group and 141 in the control group) were analyzed. The BCAA group was divided into 3 subgroups, whose patients consumed 4.15 g, 8.3 g, or 12.45 g of BCAAs daily for the analysis. There were significant differences in the CP score, albumin, and hepatic encephalopathy between the 2 groups at baseline. After matching the propensity scores, we analyzed patients in the BCAA-12.45 g group (12.45 g of BCAAs daily, n = 41) and matched control group (n = 41). The MELD score significantly improved in the BCCA-12.45 g group compared to the matched control group (P = .004). The changes in the serum bilirubin level (P = .014) and CP score (P = .033) over time also differed significantly between the 2 groups. The incidence rates of cirrhosis-related complications (P = .973) and development of hepatocellular carcinoma (2 cases each) did not differ significantly between the 2 groups.Long-term oral BCAA supplementation has beneficial effects in patients with advanced liver cirrhosis. A further large-scale prospective study is needed to delineate these beneficial effects.


Effects of branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) on the progression of advanced liver disease: A Korean nationwide, multicenter, retrospective, observ... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Progesterone]

J Head Trauma Rehabil. 2017 Jan 5. doi: 10.1097/HTR.0000000000000280. [Epub ahead of print]
Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs) and Traumatic Brain Injury: A Systematic Review.
Sharma B1, Lawrence DW, Hutchison MG.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Despite the prevalence of traumatic brain injury (TBI), pharmaceutical treatment options for brain injury remain limited. However, nutritional intervention (such as with branched chain amino acids [BCAAs]) has emerged as a promising treatment option for TBI.

OBJECTIVES:
(1) To determine whether TBI patients have lower levels of endogenous BCAAs postinjury; and (2) to evaluate whether post-TBI BCAA supplementation improves clinical outcome.

DESIGN:
A systematic review of primary research articles examining the relationship between BCAAs and TBI recovery indexed in Ovid/MEDLINE, EMBASE, and PsycINFO.

RESULTS:
Of the 11 studies identified, 3 examined the effects of TBI on endogenous BCAA levels and consistently reported thatBCAA concentrations were depressed postinjury. The remaining 8 studies examined the effects of BCAA supplementation on TBI outcome in animals (n = 3) and humans (n = 5). The animal studies (in mild-to-moderate TBI) showed that BCAAs improved post-TBI outcome. Similar results were found in human trials (conducted primarily in patients with severe TBI), with 4 of the 5 studies reporting improved outcome with BCAA supplementation.

CONCLUSION:
Although our review demonstrates an overall positive association between BCAAs and TBI outcome, the evidence of the efficacy of supplementation has been limited to severe TBI. To date, there is insufficient evidence to determine the benefits of BCAAs in mild TBI. Given the high frequency of mild TBI and the promise of BCAAs as an intervention in severe TBI, future research should examine the effects of BCAAs in milder brain injury.


Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs) and Traumatic Brain Injury: A Systematic Review. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[snowboard111]

The way you go about it is so wrong, it's ridiculous...

 

[Catecholamine]

Well, I got tyrosine recently and have had great results with it for the past 2 days; increased energy, body temperature, libido and a greatly improved mood. I've had BCAAs on their own too and they've improved mood, but I haven't had them together yet.

Can this combination cause tolerance? And if so, how do I avoid it? Tyrosine has worked better than most things I've tried so far, and I'd hate to be back at square one again.

 

[JDreamer]

I took the combo 3 times a day, together with 5g of taurine each time. So total taurine intake was 15g and I did this for a month. After about a month taurine benefits reached a plateau for me and I dropped it. I still take it occasionally, but no more than 3g at a time.
Also, if you supplement with tyrosine, there are studies that it only converts to dopamine if you are exposed to daylight.

Damnit.

Really only getting sunlight on the weekends at the moment. Guess I gotta get outside more then.

 

[Douglas Ek]

@haidut

Hi man!
So I started this combo a week ago 3 grams BCAA and 1,5 grams phenylalanine. First two days i did experience all the benefits like way better mood and libido. Then suddenly i started to feel a bit strange. Eventually this grew into a migraine that I've had now for 4 days straight. I've also have depersonalisation now as well. I don't have any anxiety but I don't feel very well. I've stopped the BCAA 2 days ago and nothing has improved. Only time I feelt like this was 2 years ago when I had my last MDMA trip. The hangover didnt feel so bad at first but then it developed into 2 weeks of depersonalisation and migraine. Im pretty sure that the BCAA & Phenylalanine depleted my serotonin. But isn't that supposed to be a good thing? Why do you get migraines and depersonalisation? According to science they both linked to low levels of serotonin. And still on this website we tout that its bad. Is there any explanation for this?

Other symptoms I had is over sensitive gag-reflex and also diarrhea.

And also another question I have. If I've depleted my serotonin wouldn't my serotonin receptors try to up regulate more within the near future to compensate. If that's the case then I wouldn't mind depleting the tryptophan coz you would have less of the bad stuff but you would still be sensitive to it's signals?

Kind regars,
Doug

 

[Douglas Ek]

@haidut I've been experimenting with phenylalanine combined with bcaa and phenylalanine and tyrosine mixed. First I feel great on first day then second and there after it declines and I quickly experience migraine headaches that last quite a long time. Do you have any knowledge about this? I really enjoy the initial mental boost so if possible id like to find a way to figure out a way to get around it. First time i thought it was the BCAA but now second time when i tried phenyl and tyrosine i suspect it has to be the phenyl. Ive read that phenyl can cause intense migraines but also read tyrosine can cause them too. Ive taken phenyl around the 2grams dosage. Wondering either to lower the dosage or just drop the phenyl and take tyrosine but i believe its the phenyl that boost my mood so much. My question though is if you know anything about the consequences of high dosage phenylanine on headaches etc?

 

[haidut]

@haidut I've been experimenting with phenylalanine combined with bcaa and phenylalanine and tyrosine mixed. First I feel great on first day then second and there after it declines and I quickly experience migraine headaches that last quite a long time. Do you have any knowledge about this? I really enjoy the initial mental boost so if possible id like to find a way to figure out a way to get around it. First time i thought it was the BCAA but now second time when i tried phenyl and tyrosine i suspect it has to be the phenyl. Ive read that phenyl can cause intense migraines but also read tyrosine can cause them too. Ive taken phenyl around the 2grams dosage. Wondering either to lower the dosage or just drop the phenyl and take tyrosine but i believe its the phenyl that boost my mood so much. My question though is if you know anything about the consequences of high dosage phenylanine on headaches etc?

Both Phe and Tyr are known to cause headaches in higher doses. Probably related to high dopamine and maybe epinephrine. Intense headaches are a known side effect of Fenclonine (pCPA), so it probably shows the BCAA/phe/tyr combo is working. Not sure how much you are using but I would try a lower dose or maybe skip a dose or a day of usage.

 

[Kibs]

BCAA should always be taken either with other protein or with tyrosine / phenylalanine.The first option is preferable, since portein provides both tyrosine and phenylalanine in optimal ratios. If you take BCAA on their own without protein or tyrosine/penylalanine, the BCAA will deplete both serotonin and dopamine resulting in a negative effect on mood and energy.

haidut been using this product at 1 scoop a day, it’s a whey/casein mix and each scoop has 5g bcaa. would this achieve what your suggesting above? SELECT Protein

Was thinking of adding taurine, glycine, beta alanine. Would you suggest anything else?