Depleting Serotonin With BCAA

[Brian]

@Dizzryda, I couldn't say I've noticed any jaw tension.

@cantstoppeating, You are a genius. I tried exactly what you suggested and it definitely had a larger net positive effect in lowering serotonin without lowering dopamine more than normal. I still have to take a lower dose of BCAAs, but your method works. Maybe because my meals tend to be a little more mixed with fat and take longer to raise amino acid blood levels from the meal's digested protein.

 

[BobbyDukes]

As a word of caution: If you suspect you already have low dopamine/high prolactin I would recommend holding off on the BCAA's for now. It might make things worse by lowering your already low dopamine too much. That's my guess at least of what happened to me.

When I first tried BCAA's with a 30g protein meal at the full 5g or even a 3 gram dose I became constipated and had symptoms of very low dopamine such as some strange depression and this constant frown (symptoms of both low serotonin and dopamine?).

I would assume if you aren't feeling signs of low serotonin (with normal dopamine) after a few attempts that your dopamine isn't high enough to be playing around with BCAAs.

This pretty much rings true for me. I find that even very low doses of BCCA's give me negative effects (mostly fatigue and apathy). Conversely, however, they definitely feel anabolic.

I have tried taking BCCA's with high protein meals, on their own (in very low doses) or in combination with l-phenylalanine (as per Haidut's recommendations), but I get the same negative apathetic effect, each time. I am prone to depression and since adopting the Ray Peat inspired approach to food, my symptons are definitely managed (as long as I keep my bowells moving, each day). BCCA's though, I have experimented with time and again, but they just make me feel miserable. I find that eating gelatin with meat is far better for my mood, than taking BCCA's.

In my case, If I were to compare BCCA's to a class of pharmaceutical drugs, it would be the anti-psychotics. A joyless, empty experience. But this my N=1. Some people (the lucky ones), are probably great results from this if they manage to find their sweet spot with dosing, etc.

 

[BobbyDukes]

I'd recommend people take 5g of BCAA 1-2 hours after their protein+sugar meal, especially in the mornings.

We need to remember that just because we eat two foods together, it doesn't mean they'll enter our bloodstream together. It's what ends up in our bloodstream that counts and timing is critical.

Isolated amino acids, like BCAAs, can take upto 15-30 minutes to enter the bloodstream, whereas the amino acids from a complete protein meal (i.e. your sugar+protein meal) can take unto 90-120 minutes. So if we take the BCAAs without the complimentary amino acids in our bloodstream, we'll experience lowered dopamine and the resulting negative effects until the rest of the amino acids from our protein meal enter the bloodstream and help alleviate some of the distress.

A good measure would be to take the 5g of BCAA as soon as you feel the rise in temp and pulse from your previous meal.

Interesting. I am going to try this. A meal for me is cheese and OJ, so perhaps there might be some logic to this. Thanks

 

[haidut]

As a word of caution: If you suspect you already have low dopamine/high prolactin I would recommend holding off on the BCAA's for now. It might make things worse by lowering your already low dopamine too much. That's my guess at least of what happened to me.

When I first tried BCAA's with a 30g protein meal at the full 5g or even a 3 gram dose I became constipated and had symptoms of very low dopamine such as some strange depression and this constant frown (symptoms of both low serotonin and dopamine?).

I would assume if you aren't feeling signs of low serotonin (with normal dopamine) after a few attempts that your dopamine isn't high enough to be playing around with BCAAs.

This pretty much rings true for me. I find that even very low doses of BCCA's give me negative effects (mostly fatigue and apathy). Conversely, however, they definitely feel anabolic.

I have tried taking BCCA's with high protein meals, on their own (in very low doses) or in combination with l-phenylalanine (as per Haidut's recommendations), but I get the same negative apathetic effect, each time. I am prone to depression and since adopting the Ray Peat inspired approach to food, my symptons are definitely managed (as long as I keep my bowells moving, each day). BCCA's though, I have experimented with time and again, but they just make me feel miserable. I find that eating gelatin with meat is far better for my mood, than taking BCCA's.

In my case, If I were to compare BCCA's to a class of pharmaceutical drugs, it would be the anti-psychotics. A joyless, empty experience. But this my N=1. Some people (the lucky ones), are probably great results from this if they manage to find their sweet spot with dosing, etc.

Your guess is quite right - high doses of BCAA (10g, 30g, 50g) have been successfully used to treat acute psychosis since at that dose they will lower both dopamine and serotonin. An old drug that does the same thing and Peat writes about it is reserpine. So, just to reiterate - BCAA will deplete both dopamine and serotonin if not taken with other protein or amino acids precursors to dopamine. And in some people BCAA lower dopamine no matter what. You could be one of those cases, so if gelatin works better for you then use that.

 

[cantstoppeating]

As an update, I've been adding 5g of BCAA along with my protein+sugar meals and I've clearly noticed a euphoric-optimistic feeling that begins 5-10 minutes after ingestion and lasts 20-60 minutes before subsiding to near baseline. The effect is pronounced and extended if I take 50mg of caffeine along with the BCAA dose. I feel like I can conquer whatever problem I'm facing with a strong desire to be social.

For anyone that hasn't yet tried it, I strongly urge you to do so.

Another update:

After a few days without supplemental BCAAs, I took my usual 5g dose about 90 minutes after my protein+sugar shake and 30 minutes later noticed a definite increase in libido.

When I took the dose I didn't have in mind the expected boost in mood/motivation or libido as I was at my desk focused on work, 30 minutes later I felt a surge in libido and that's when it occurred to me that I'd just taken BCAAs. I've repeated it a number of times. As haidut noted the increased motivation and libido, from reducing tryptophan and thus serotonin, go hand-in-hand. It definitely works.

 

[Theo]

I have been experimenting with similar dosages.

I take
20 grams of goat whey concentrate
15 or more grams of BCAA
5 gms of taurine
and 350 mg of acetyl l tyrosine with 50 mg of p5p which I take upon arising .

Notes. If I take more than 350 mg of acetyl l tyrosine I become too speedy. 350 mg works though.

I realize goat whey concentrate may be flawed ..however it seems to help my body heal from exercise.

The tyrosine has helped me to get to only one caffeinated coffee a day.
.the rest of the time I drink decaf. The tyrosine is powerful and I might tone it down by taking it after lunch instead of first thing in the morning. It does motivate though.
.and keeps down moods at bay.

 

[Peaterpeater]

Need help with tyrosine use.

This morning I made a workout shake that included (3mg of BCAA + slightly less than 1 mg of tyrosine) + (3 tbs of gelatin + 200mg caffeine capsule) + (1 cup of OJ + 1 tsp sugar).

I ingested this shake around 8:45 am after having breakfast at 7:30am of 2 eggs + 1 cup of OJ. By 10:30am my hands were shaking a little. I wasn't sure if was because I didn't have enough food, or the caffeine supplement or not enough light to help the tyrosine convert to dopamine.

Is it possible that the tyrosine converted to adrenaline because I hadn't gotten any direct sunlight yet? I ingested the bcaa + tyrosine workout shake around 8:45 and didn't get out into the sunlight until 10:30am.

Can anyone tell me how long after ingesting tyrosine do I need to get direct sunlight? Is 15 minutes of walking in the sunlight enough for the conversion process? Do I need to be trying to sort of "stare" at the sun a bit to get the light shining onto my retina? Can someone help clarify this "tyrosine conversion to dopamine" process for me?

 

[marikay]

Haidut, is there any benefit to taking tyrosine instead of phenylalanine with the bcca's?

 

[PeatThemAll]

post 37743

Did he specify what that 'different' effect was? Tryptophan is handled differently then, if it comes from a raw source?

In Ray's article "Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging", or possibly a Rubin interview with Ray, Ray somewhat alludes to the ratio of calcium to phosphate playing a major contributor in whether or not tryptophan is converted into excess serotonin or into the preferable b-vitamin, niacin. Milk's high calcium content does a good job of this assuming the rest of your diet is somewhat properly balanced with regards to calcium & phosphorus.

I believe in one of Rubin's interviews with Ray, Ray mentions that the process of turning milk liquid into a powder, like protein powder, or milk powder for that matter makes the tryptophan (among other things) possibly harmful. It's possible that he was talking about the body's ability to turn the tryptophan into niacin rather than serotonin, but I can't find my notes on that right now so I'm shooting in the dark at this one. I do recall him saying (probably in the same interview) if you plan on ingesting milk concentrate, to opt for condensed milk over milk powder. Then again I'm pretty sure in the recipes section there's an ice cream recipe charlie posted from Ray that includes powdered milk, so he's obviously messing around with these view points.

Where does one draw the line regarding denaturation? I mean, how much can you denature an amino acid ? Not much to play with, and carbon-linked atoms tend to be a lot less reactive. So … denaturation … proteins, sure, but … amino acids?

Then again, isn't that the whole point of digestion? Denaturation, degradation, assimilation (of amino acids), and reassembly?

TRP Chemical Structure

 

[Dean]

I missed the fact that BCAA's lower both serotonin and dopamine. I ordered to try to offset the lower dopamine effect I got from cypro. So much for that idea, I guess.

Anyway, I took it for the first time yesterday afternoon and did get a crazy surge in libido. I had taken DLPA and Mucuna L-Dopa 98% earlier in the day. This morning I took tyrosine (and mucuna) and will try taking the bcaa's after waiting an hour or so to see if that happens again. If you are getting the libido boost does that still mean it could be lowering dopamine? I was on the apathetic side yesterday as well, but that is not an unusual state for me to be in anyway. It wasn't anything like the despairing depression that cypro sent me in to though.

 

[Giraffe]

post 50769 The first time I tried tyrosine it brought on the most exciting, manic feeling and lasted for 3 days (all the symptoms now point to this being "thyroid storm"[interestingly enough, iodine use brought the same symptoms months later]).

Do you remember how much tyrosine you took when you had those thyroid storm symptoms?

 

[haidut]

post 103978 Haidut, is there any benefit to taking tyrosine instead of phenylalanine with the bcca's?

Tyrosine is a direct precursor to the catecholamines. Phenylalanine is earlier in the chain and may not convert into tyrosine as needed. But in reality both seemed to work for me. The actual study is with BCAA + tyrosine so that's that.

 

[mt_dreams]

post 104000
Where does one draw the line regarding denaturation? I mean, how much can you denature an amino acid ? Not much to play with, and carbon-linked atoms tend to be a lot less reactive. So … denaturation … proteins, sure, but … amino acids?

Then again, isn't that the whole point of digestion? Denaturation, degradation, assimilation (of amino acids), and reassembly?

TRP Chemical Structure

I agree about the fact that all things end up becoming denatured in order to assimilate, but it's more of a point about timing. I would rather my body be the one denaturing most of my food, lets call it freshly denatured, rather than all of it already being denatured before I eat it. In this case, it does appear that denatured milk in the form of powder, or condensed via powder does not allow one with a decent calcium to phosporus ratio to convert whatever tryptophan milk has into niacin. For those looking to lower tryptophan, and/or get niacin without supplementation, this seems like something to ponder.

 

[Dean]

ok...so I've been marrying this concept with the MAP protein replacement idea and taking 5 mg of BCAA's, 2 mg of phenylalanine, and 500-750 mgs each of lysine, threonine, beta alanine, and taurine 3 x a day. The first time I took it there was immediate clarity and lack of brain fog that I hadn't had for as long as I can remember...decades. As I've continued though I'm not sure if this is something that is too much to do 3x a day. I haven't been sleeping at all, for one and I also have this strange sort of head sensation thing going. Still with the clarity and lack of fog though.

Is there any reason I should pull back on this? I should mention I've also been doing other stuff too: now up to 600- 800 mg caffeine daily. 15000 iu vitamin a. Just recently started using haidut's pregnenolone and progesterone formulations with dmso. Have been taking additional amounts of lysine with food throughout the day to reduce gut serotonin/nausea.

:edit: I should mention I've also made some radical departures on diet. Eating only yeast-free sourdough bread with fruit preserves or coc. oil/salt. Baked corn tortillas with coc oil/salt. a few bowls of cereal. Mexican cokes. black currant juice and yellow bell peppers for vit. c.

 

[sm1693]

post 104297

post 50769 The first time I tried tyrosine it brought on the most exciting, manic feeling and lasted for 3 days (all the symptoms now point to this being "thyroid storm"[interestingly enough, iodine use brought the same symptoms months later]).

Do you remember how much tyrosine you took when you had those thyroid storm symptoms?

I vaguely recall 400 or 500 mg.

 

[Giraffe]

post 115742

post 104297

post 50769 The first time I tried tyrosine it brought on the most exciting, manic feeling and lasted for 3 days (all the symptoms now point to this being "thyroid storm"[interestingly enough, iodine use brought the same symptoms months later]).

Do you remember how much tyrosine you took when you had those thyroid storm symptoms?

I vaguely recall 400 or 500 mg.

Thanks.

 

[milk_lover]

Can you say theanine does the same thing as BCAA's with regard to serotonin without lowering dopamine? If one decides to supplement theanine, any considerations he/she has to take? In other words, would theanine interfere with other amino acids similar to BCAA's reducing tyrosine?

 

[lexis]

I think your thyroid has to be functioning well,otherwise theanine causes serious motivation problems
Serotonin exist as a compensation for low metabolism.

 

[milk_lover]

I think your thyroid has to be functioning well,otherwise theanine causes serious motivation problems
Serotonin exist as a compensation for low metabolism.

What do you mean by motivation problems? How can I know it's working for me?

 

[lexis]

I think Haidut has described the same effects regarding high dose P5P. Intellectually you may think you are motivated,but there is a more overwhelming emotional power inhibiting it.