Dairy = Essential Or Deadly?

[somuch4food]

My main problem is that getting restful sleep is super super hard for me. No matter how 100% perfect my nutrition was for the day, it doesn't seem to give me better sleep. And if my sleep was bad, it throws the whole next day off regardless of what food or supplements or sunlight or anything that I do. That's my current stress cycle I am stuck in.

Only thing that seems to break the cycle like I say is sleep upwards of 13 hrs. Which I know isn't normal, but if it's the only way to break the cycle, then that's what I shall do.... thing is I can never do it for more than two nights in a row thanks to having to work during the week. I start to recover during the weekend then start feeling bad as lack of sleep creeps up during the workweek.

I'm thinking you haven't identified all your triggers yet. I know you're following a Peat inspired diet, but it's not suited for everyone. I'm slowly discovering my triggers using intuition and detective work. Carotenoids are a major trigger for me. It does not seem to be all carotenoids though. Cooked tomatoes seem fine. If I were you, I would tweak my diet while mostly ignoring dogmas and what not about food. Try anything, more PUFAs, more SFAs, more starch, more fruits, more dairy... and find what helps you as an individual.

As for this thread, I'm still toying with dairy. Yogourt makes me wake in the middle of the night to pee. A bit of butter seems fine. Cheese is harder, there are many kinds and I haven't tried everything yet.

 

[sebastian_r]

My main problem is that getting restful sleep is super super hard for me. No matter how 100% perfect my nutrition was for the day, it doesn't seem to give me better sleep. And if my sleep was bad, it throws the whole next day off regardless of what food or supplements or sunlight or anything that I do. That's my current stress cycle I am stuck in.

Only thing that seems to break the cycle like I say is sleep upwards of 13 hrs. Which I know isn't normal, but if it's the only way to break the cycle, then that's what I shall do.... thing is I can never do it for more than two nights in a row thanks to having to work during the week. I start to recover during the weekend then start feeling bad as lack of sleep creeps up during the workweek.

you could try an elimination diet and add things back to it one piece at the time.
e.g. start with just fatty beef and one carb source that you know you're doing well with. that's what helped me to finally find what works for me (no dairy, no starch, no vitamin a, low fructose fruits). Suddenly I'm full of energy, great sleep....

 

[Cirion]

Are you having problems getting to sleep? Or are you having issues of waking up periodically? Bag breathing can really help people dealing with insomnia. Waking up periodically throughout the night might suggest you're running out of liver glycogen before morning.

I haven't had problems falling asleep usually the last few nights. Mostly I just need to sleep way too long. I do wake up periodically but generally get back to sleep easily enough.

I generally go through a cycle that looks something like this

Sleep 5 hr, wake up, sleep 4-5 more hr, wake up, sleep 2 hr, wake up. sleep 1-2 hr, wake up -> finally feel decent, and waking temps 98.4F+

But during the work week I can only achieve 2-3 of 4 cycles before having to start my day, which means I didn't get the sleep I needed.

Doesn't seem to matter how many calories/carbs that I eat. I've eaten as many as 6,500 calories in a day. Seems impossible to maintain glycogen. Even with 1000+ gram of carbs.

Someone recommended I try just slight sleep deprivation on purpose but that was a disaster, I felt even worse and temps tanked like a rock.

 

[Cirion]

you could try an elimination diet and add things back to it one piece at the time.
e.g. start with just fatty beef and one carb source that you know you're doing well with. that's what helped me to finally find what works for me (no dairy, no starch, no vitamin a, low fructose fruits). Suddenly I'm full of energy, great sleep....

I'm currently doing all that except no dairy and no vitamin A. I am not a believer in all the anti-vitamin A sentiments going around, but that said, I do have a feeling the *added* vitamin A to my skim milk probably isn't doing me any favors. I am not a fan of fortified foods.

I actually did have thoughts of replacing the milk with beef, because this whole milk experiment isn't working out for me. I think commercial foods just don't work period. If one wants to have proper skim milk I think they need to skim their own pure, raw milk.

 

[Cirion]

I'm thinking you haven't identified all your triggers yet. I know you're following a Peat inspired diet, but it's not suited for everyone. I'm slowly discovering my triggers using intuition and detective work. Carotenoids are a major trigger for me. It does not seem to be all carotenoids though. Cooked tomatoes seem fine. If I were you, I would tweak my diet while mostly ignoring dogmas and what not about food. Try anything, more PUFAs, more SFAs, more starch, more fruits, more dairy... and find what helps you as an individual.

As for this thread, I'm still toying with dairy. Yogourt makes me wake in the middle of the night to pee. A bit of butter seems fine. Cheese is harder, there are many kinds and I haven't tried everything yet.

I'm willing to experiment on everything except PUFA. I know for a fact that me and PUFA's definitely do not mix. That's the one thing that RP is right about, period, 100%. When I bring PUFA's back, I get aches and pains, and I have to sleep even longer. I had a period of time I played with eating fatty fish and I had to sleep 16-18 hrs a day. Needless to say, I won't ever touch PUFA heavy foods again lol.

My gut is telling me my issue is protein/amino acids. I bumped up my protein intake at the advice of some people here but it's been a disaster honestly. Probably because the massive increase of tryptophan intake. I am taking gelatin regularly now though, may add in BCAA's. Typically I do well on gelatin, which verifies what RP says about it. This, alongside the vitamin A added into milk, is probably the reason why myself and so many others just can't handle milk. If I could get most my protein from gelatin I would. I played with 72 gram of it a day for a while at first it was great, good energy even. BUT... I had painful bowel movements Maybe I have a poor brand of gelatin (It's one of the cheaper ones). Perhaps I'll experiment with high dose gelatin from a better brand soon. Really annoying because I just know that gelatin seems to be the key, and yet can't tolerate it. Will definitely try this soon.

 

[somuch4food]

I'm willing to experiment on everything except PUFA. I know for a fact that me and PUFA's definitely do not mix. That's the one thing that RP is right about, period, 100%. When I bring PUFA's back, I get aches and pains, and I have to sleep even longer. I had a period of time I played with eating fatty fish and I had to sleep 16-18 hrs a day. Needless to say, I won't ever touch PUFA heavy foods again lol.

That's individuality for you. As long as you actually tried it, I have no objections. Many nowadays avoid foods just because they read it's bad for so and so, but don't check if it applies to them personally.

 

[Cirion]

That's individuality for you. As long as you actually tried it, I have no objections. Many nowadays avoid foods just because they read it's bad for so and so, but don't check if it applies to them personally.

Yeah that's fair. I do think the "RP diet" is probably ideal... for someone in pristine health. The path to good health doesn't necessarily include all of the foods that one who is healthy would eat though. It's confusing, but I now realize this, when you consider that many nutrients convert either to negative (lactic acid, serotonin) or positive (niacin, dopamine, etc...) depending on current state of health it makes sense. But the problem is that when one is unhealthy, virtually ALL foods are negative (RP: when someone is unhealthy, ANYTHING can be dangerous) and it's so hard to fight this uphill battle to actually get well.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Yeah that's fair. I do think the "RP diet" is probably ideal... for someone in pristine health. The path to good health doesn't necessarily include all of the foods that one who is healthy would eat though. It's confusing, but I now realize this, when you consider that many nutrients convert either to negative (lactic acid, serotonin) or positive (niacin, dopamine, etc...) depending on current state of health it makes sense. But the problem is that when one is unhealthy, virtually ALL foods are negative (RP: when someone is unhealthy, ANYTHING can be dangerous) and it's so hard to fight this uphill battle to actually get well.

Cutting out whatever stress that simply is not worth your time is a big factor. Deciding what is worth coping with, dwelling on, and what is simply not productive. Stress is not just diet or personal attitude, it takes some real introspection and investigation sometimes to figure out what needs to change to bring your life back in to balance. For me things like what my job is, who I spend the most time with, where I’m living, what my hobbies are all play big roles. Sometimes switching those life factors up can make a huge improvememt.

 

[Cirion]

Cutting out whatever stress that simply is not worth your time is a big factor. Deciding what is worth coping with, dwelling on, and what is simply not productive. Stress is not just diet or personal attitude, it takes some real introspection and investigation sometimes to figure out what needs to change to bring your life back in to balance. For me things like what my job is, who I spend the most time with, where I’m living, what my hobbies are all play big roles. Sometimes switching those life factors up can make a huge improvememt.

For sure. I really want to move my career to Melbourne FL, but lately my motivation has been too low to apply for jobs to make it happen. I know that sounds like an excuse, but I am sure many of us here know what this hypothyroid induced laziness and fatigue is like, it's brutal lol.

 

[Blossom]

For sure. I really want to move my career to Melbourne FL, but lately my motivation has been too low to apply for jobs to make it happen. I know that sounds like an excuse, but I am sure many of us here know what this hypothyroid induced laziness and fatigue is like, it's brutal lol.

It can take time for the momentum to build and everything to come together. Just keep trying and don't give up! You don't seem like the type to give up easily but I had to say it anyway.

 

[Cirion]

It can take time for the momentum to build and everything to come together. Just keep trying and don't give up! You don't seem like the type to give up easily but I had to say it anyway.

Thanks yeah lol I have a tendency to not want to give up. I have been briefly healthy before so I KNOW it is possible. That's the only thing keeping me going tbh. I am fortunate that I know what good health feels like, a lot of people don't bother because unhealth is all they know, and can't even imagine what good health feels like and thus think it is impossible. For example my brother has zero interest in health stuff, he has all the symptoms of sky high serotonin but he has literally said "it's just how I am". Sad. One day I'll turn him around tho lol

Well, going to grocery today. Probably bring back beef for a week and use that for the primary protein for a bit and see how that goes. In the past beef has generally been my stable fall-back option. Also order some BCAA, thinking of trying out Mexican coke for the first time as well. Will try to get BCAA & Gelatin with my protein wherever possible.

BTW, I abstained from protein for a couple hrs and just munching on grapes, feel better now. Almost 100% sure the problem is protein/AA's. Which BTW is what @charlie has said too, at least in different words. and was just reading @olive eating only 50-75 gram of protein a day despite weight training and being a male. I go back to what RP has said about protein, that basically one should focus on HIGH QUALITY amino acids and that the negative amino acids like tryptophan, methionine, cysteine, ETC... can actually have a net negative effect on muscles, and can even be catabolic. From what Charlie has learned, these negative AA's cause mucus buildup which ultimately causes all sorts of disorder in the body.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

For sure. I really want to move my career to Melbourne FL, but lately my motivation has been too low to apply for jobs to make it happen. I know that sounds like an excuse, but I am sure many of us here know what this hypothyroid induced laziness and fatigue is like, it's brutal lol.

Hang in there man! I was at the bottom of my health less than 2 years ago, and now I feel almost back to how I know I should feel, things can change but they usually take a while to really shift and the shift is not typically in a linear fashion. A big thing for me was to write down some easy to follow rules, and stop obsessing, just follow the rules and reassess after a few months have passed, and try to focus on things other than my health state. Sometimes the best thing to do is simply not thinking about where you are at, and to engage in activities that distract you for a while.

 

[Blossom]

Hang in there man! I was at the bottom of my health less than 2 years ago, and now I feel almost back to how I know I should feel, things can change but they usually take a while to really shift and the shift is not at typically in a linear fashion. A big thing for me was to write down some easy to follow rules, and stop obsessing, just follow the rules and reassess after a few months have passed, and try to focus on things other than my health state. Sometimes the best thing to do is simply not thinking about where you are at, and to engage in activities that distract you for a while.

Excellent advice.

 

[TeaRex14]

I haven't had problems falling asleep usually the last few nights. Mostly I just need to sleep way too long. I do wake up periodically but generally get back to sleep easily enough.

I generally go through a cycle that looks something like this

Sleep 5 hr, wake up, sleep 4-5 more hr, wake up, sleep 2 hr, wake up. sleep 1-2 hr, wake up -> finally feel decent, and waking temps 98.4F+

But during the work week I can only achieve 2-3 of 4 cycles before having to start my day, which means I didn't get the sleep I needed.

Doesn't seem to matter how many calories/carbs that I eat. I've eaten as many as 6,500 calories in a day. Seems impossible to maintain glycogen. Even with 1000+ gram of carbs.

Someone recommended I try just slight sleep deprivation on purpose but that was a disaster, I felt even worse and temps tanked like a rock.

Have you looked into low cortisol? Sounds like a possibility, cortisol is used to wake us up in the mornings. When we have low cortisol we wake up tired or feeling like we need more sleep than we got. There's a general trend to lower, not raise, cortisol of course. But going too far in the opposite direction can cause problems too. Adrenal cortex might help if this is the case. Even if this is a dead end though, my amateur opinion is definitely something going on with the HPA regulation.

 

[Cirion]

Have you looked into low cortisol? Sounds like a possibility, cortisol is used to wake us up in the mornings. When we have low cortisol we wake up tired or feeling like we need more sleep than we got. There's a general trend to lower, not raise, cortisol of course. But going too far in the opposite direction can cause problems too. Adrenal cortex might help if this is the case. Even if this is a dead end though, my amateur opinion is definitely something going on with the HPA regulation.

Yes it's probably low cortisol. But my understandings of why one has low cortisol in the morning, aka adrenal fatigue, is simple (but not easy to fix). Adrenaline occurring on and off throughout the night, repeatedly, eventually burns out the adrenals. Then when you finally want to wake up, they have burned out, and don't work, so low cortisol.

The fix (easier said than done) is prevent the nightly adrenaline secretions. The good news is that once the cycle is broken, adrenals actually regenerate quite quickly.

 

[TeaRex14]

Yes it's probably low cortisol. But my understandings of why one has low cortisol in the morning, aka adrenal fatigue, is simple (but not easy to fix). Adrenaline occurring on and off throughout the night, repeatedly, eventually burns out the adrenals. Then when you finally want to wake up, they have burned out, and don't work, so low cortisol.

The fix (easier said than done) is prevent the nightly adrenaline secretions. The good news is that once the cycle is broken, adrenals actually regenerate quite quickly.

Salt is an excellent way to lower adrenaline, if the problem is aldosterone related. Also GABA agonists lower adrenaline as well, but many of them also lower cortisol too, like theanine.

 

[tara]

I thought MCT's were the healthiest fats? Everything is so confusing. No matter how long I read and post around here I manage to get confused on a daily basis. lol.

Lol, I know what you mean. But I think expecting to be able to categorise foods into simply always 'good'/'healthy' or 'bad'/'unhealthy' is probably destined to confusion, frustration, disappointment, or shutting out a lot of evidence. :)

If I like how I feel eating something, I keep doing so.
If not, I kick it.

:)

I'm currently doing all that except no dairy and no vitamin A. I am not a believer in all the anti-vitamin A sentiments going around, but that said, I do have a feeling the *added* vitamin A to my skim milk probably isn't doing me any favors.

I can't remember whether you've experimented with this, but if not ...
Have you considered whether you personally could be vulnerable to milk? For instance, the casomorphins might be having a sedative effect on you. or you might be intolerant to the proteins for some other reason. Milk seems to make me very dozy the next day.

 

[Cirion]

Have you considered whether you personally could be vulnerable to milk? For instance, the casomorphins might be having a sedative effect on you. or you might be intolerant to the proteins for some other reason. Milk seems to make me very dozy the next day.

Yea I pretty much think its the tryptophan at this point. And probably also the added vitamin A. Ray peat said that any more than 5,000 IU a day for someone hypo may be problematic. Well according to cronometer I am consistently well over that thanks to the vitamin A in the milk. I am really high on the days I have liverwurst which isn't surprising, but because of that I was hoping I'd be under 5,000 the rest of the time, but nope.

Now I can kind of see why the anti-vitamin A craze is starting to take off. I don't think VA is bad in and of itself, but it could be easy to OD on it according to RP.

 

[tara]

Yea I pretty much think its the tryptophan at this point. And probably also the added vitamin A. Ray peat said that any more than 5,000 IU a day for someone hypo may be problematic. Well according to cronometer I am consistently well over that thanks to the vitamin A in the milk.

Whichever component and mechanism it might be, if you think something is not working well for you, could be worth an experiment of a week without dairy to see how it treats you. For me, if I've snuck in a bit too much over a few days, it takes about 2 days for my head to clear fully when I strictly remove it again.

 

[Blossom]

I am consistently well over that thanks to the vitamin A in the milk.

It can sneak up on you...I was shocked when I realized I was getting double to quadruple the recommended amount. I never paid much attention to the green categories on cronometer before -I just assumed it was all good. My blood level checked at the high end of normal after virtually eating no A for over 7.5 months.