Creatine And Muscle Cramps

[dfspcc20]

Something to consider is this quote by Koveras: “I've seen that even a mild dietary phosphorous deficiency can impair cell ATP levels. Creatine will also increase phosphate requirements and uptake - potentially a mechanism for creatine induced muscle cramps if that mild dietary phosphate deficiency is present and/or if there is insulin resistance. Important to consider, especially for athletes, considering the general emphasis on reducing phosphate intake here. ATP in this product comes with its own phosphate, but I assume ramping up ETC or utilizing the purine salvage pathways could increase phosphate requirements further.”

Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

Are there any blood tests that would show phosphorous deficiency? @Koveras

 

[Koveras]

Something to consider is this quote by Koveras: “I've seen that even a mild dietary phosphorous deficiency can impair cell ATP levels. Creatine will also increase phosphate requirements and uptake - potentially a mechanism for creatine induced muscle cramps if that mild dietary phosphate deficiency is present and/or if there is insulin resistance. Important to consider, especially for athletes, considering the general emphasis on reducing phosphate intake here. ATP in this product comes with its own phosphate, but I assume ramping up ETC or utilizing the purine salvage pathways could increase phosphate requirements further.”

Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

Are there any blood tests that would show phosphorous deficiency? @Koveras

Testing phosphate would reveal if severe hypophosphatemia was present but a mild dietary phosphorous deficiency can reduce intracellular phosphate without influencing blood levels. The easiest thing to try would be increasing phosphorous intake.

Thompson, C. H., & Kemp, G. J. (1995). Reduced muscle cell phosphate (Pi) without hypophosphatemia in mild dietary Pi deprivation. Clin Chem, 41(6 Pt 1), 946-947.

Polgreen, K. E., Kemp, G. J., & Radda, G. K. (1993). Modulation of inorganic phosphate uptake into a mouse myoblast cell line by extracellular creatine. Biochem Soc Trans, 21(4), 440S.

Pesta, D. H., Tsirigotis, D. N., Befroy, D. E., Caballero, D., Jurczak, M. J., Rahimi, Y., . . . Shulman, G. I. (2016). Hypophosphatemia promotes lower rates of muscle ATP synthesis. FASEB J, 30(10), 3378-3387. doi:10.1096/fj.201600473R​

 

[Koveras]

In cases of insulin resistance or inherited disorders in phosphate transport the dose seems to be around 375-500mg of phosphate 3x daily

 

[Mito]

Are there any blood tests that would show phosphorous deficiency? @Koveras

The Great Plains Laboratory Orgainc Acids test has a marker for Phosphoric acid which is supposed to be directly proportional to dietary phosphate. But it’s an expensive test.

 

[dfspcc20]

In cases of insulin resistance or inherited disorders in phosphate transport the dose seems to be around 375-500mg of phosphate 3x daily

Are you a proponent of the 1:1 calcium to phosphate ratio? Seems like calcium might interfere in high doses:

What Is Phosphorus?
"Long term use or large doses of antacids that contain aluminum, calcium or magnesium can decrease phosphorus absorption and cause low blood levels of the mineral in the body. "

I get plenty of dairy (to get 1.5 - 2.0g calcium daily), along with some meat. Can anything else interfere?
I'm not sure if I have insulin resistance. I'm not overweight.

 

[JKX]

A possibly useful study showing the benefit of creatine for managing calcium within muscle cells. Perhaps its this mechanism that's also at play with regard to cramping? It seems to be a common occurrence in some users of this supplement.

Creatine supplementation improves intracellular Ca2+ handling and survival in mdx skeletal muscle cells - ScienceDirect

 

[JKX]

And this one showing potential benefits for impaired mitochondrial function in HIV infected persons.

Creatine protects against mitochondrial dysfunction associated with HIV-1 Tat-induced neuronal injury

 

[Mossy]

I know this is up for debate, and there are plenty of studies that show otherwise, but creatine seems to tax my kidneys. Maybe this is the need for more phosphates, as mentioned. Would beef be the best source and quality of phosphates, or will any food source high in those do?

 

[Mossy]

Because my prior question was so successful, I thought I'd ask a second one.

With regard to creatine supplementing, cramping ,and taxing effects on the kidney's, would anyone be able to offer up additional insight to what I just read here and here? More specifically, what my non-scientific mind wanted to conclude is, the possibility that glycine and arginine could be contributors to better assimilation/bioavailability of supplemented creatine. Maybe helping with the cramping and definite kidney burden I get.

I stress, my assumptions are not scientifically founded, just dumb-founded.

 

[Waremu]

Something to consider is this quote by Koveras: “I've seen that even a mild dietary phosphorous deficiency can impair cell ATP levels. Creatine will also increase phosphate requirements and uptake - potentially a mechanism for creatine induced muscle cramps if that mild dietary phosphate deficiency is present and/or if there is insulin resistance. Important to consider, especially for athletes, considering the general emphasis on reducing phosphate intake here. ATP in this product comes with its own phosphate, but I assume ramping up ETC or utilizing the purine salvage pathways could increase phosphate requirements further.”

Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

Interesting quote, though this does seem to go against Ray Peats view on Phosphate. Maybe it's not as simple as phosphate deficiency meaning you are eating less phosphorus? From what I have seen, some information suggests that low Vitamin D/calcium can cause lower phosphorus. In more extreme cases this is seen with rickets:

Hypophosphatemia: the common denominator of all rickets. - PubMed - NCBI

"Rickets is often cited as proof of the need for vitamin D supplementation. However, a review of the metabolic processes involved provides some prospective. Adequate vitamin D is essential to prevent rickets, but adequate calcium is equally important; if either calcium or vitamin D is deficient, bone health suffers. Hypophosphatemia is the common denominator of all rickets; low calcium intake leads to hyperparathyroidism, which leads to high phosphorus excretion and, thus, phosphorus deficiency [44]."


So perhaps, one has low phosphate because they are excreting more phosphorus than they should, due to higher parathyroid due to low calcium and/or Vitamin D. This seems to be in line with what Ray Peat says. Some of those studies the poster of that quote posted shows the ATP-low phosphate connection, but, unless I missed it, I don't think they connected the low phosphate to high calcium and very low phosphorus intake. I think maybe to clear this up it would be worthwhile to try to find studies done on those consuming a 1:1 or more calcium to phos. ratio and enough Vitamin D whiling having their phos./ATP markers checked.

 

[Mossy]

Interesting quote, though this does seem to go against Ray Peats view on Phosphate. Maybe it's not as simple as phosphate deficiency meaning you are eating less phosphorus? From what I have seen, some information suggests that low Vitamin D/calcium can cause lower phosphorus. In more extreme cases this is seen with rickets:

Hypophosphatemia: the common denominator of all rickets. - PubMed - NCBI

"Rickets is often cited as proof of the need for vitamin D supplementation. However, a review of the metabolic processes involved provides some prospective. Adequate vitamin D is essential to prevent rickets, but adequate calcium is equally important; if either calcium or vitamin D is deficient, bone health suffers. Hypophosphatemia is the common denominator of all rickets; low calcium intake leads to hyperparathyroidism, which leads to high phosphorus excretion and, thus, phosphorus deficiency [44]."


So perhaps, one has low phosphate because they are excreting more phosphorus than they should, due to higher parathyroid due to low calcium and/or Vitamin D. This seems to be in line with what Ray Peat says. Some of those studies the poster of that quote posted shows the ATP-low phosphate connection, but, unless I missed it, I don't think they connected the low phosphate to high calcium and very low phosphorus intake. I think maybe to clear this up it would be worthwhile to try to find studies done on those consuming a 1:1 or more calcium to phos. ratio and enough Vitamin D whiling having their phos./ATP markers checked.

This is interesting, because I have low vitamin D on my blood tests—which would help to establish the low D/low calcium-low phosphate relationship, which is then potentiated by the taking of creatine—hence, the cramping and kidney issues. So, if I interpret this correctly, I may be able to test this by taking more vitamin D (supps, sun, food), and/or calcium (supps, food), and/or phosphorus (supps, food)?

 

[YamnayaMommy]

Creatine has been the ONLY supplement to which I can attribute, with some certainty, a major physiological improvement.

I have been working to regain my ability to do a single pull up (legit, from hanging) after losing the ability over the course of three pregnancies in four years.

I was working for six months on slow let downs, assisted pull ups, etc. Zero improvement.

Then I took a loading dose of creatine, followed by a maintenance dose of 5g/day, and within two weeks was able to do a pull up.