CREATINE AND DHT

[Adrian]

Looking for information on creatine and DHT on the internet, the only study I find is one dealing with young rugby players in South Africa, will there be more information about it? other source or scientific study? someone will have information or a link to share? Thank you!!!

 

[Dan W]

I've wondered about that rubgy one for a long time, and would like to try to test it myself with bloodwork at some point. When I mentioned idea, someone told me others had tried and hadn't gotten the same dramatic results, so I wonder if there was some flaw in the study.

One criticism of that study has been that the supplement could have been spiked with steroids by the manufacturer (as sometimes happened), but apparently they tested for that.

 

[schultz]

others had tried and hadn't gotten the same dramatic results

Did these people do labs to confirm or were they basing these off of how they feel?

This study along with the study showing lower 9% increased lifespan and significantly lowered lipofuscin in mice taking creatine has made me want to take start taking it again (last time was about 10 years ago maybe?) I am especially interested in the lipofuscin lowering aspect of creatine.

Creatine improves health and survival of mice. - PubMed - NCBI

"Creatine (Cr) is a natural ergogenic compound and is widely used by athletes as a food supplement to enhance muscular performance. It also has anti-apoptotic (O’Gorman et al., 1997), anti-excitotoxic (Xu et al., 1996), and directly anti-oxidative properties (Lawler et al., 2002), both in vitro and in vivo. Marked Cr-mediated neuroprotection was found in rodent models of neurodegenerative diseases, in particular Parkinson and Huntington disease (Matthews et al., 1999; Andreassen et al., 2001)."

"Several aging- and energy-related biomarkers were examined. Serum lactate, a global marker of aerobic metabolism, was significantly lower in Cr-fed mice than in controls after 1 year of therapy (3.23 mmol/l versus 4.11 mmol/l; p < 0.05). Accumulation of the “aging pigment” lipofuscin (visualized by autofluorescence) in the hippocampus trended to be lower in Cr-fed mice than in controls"

"The only other supplement recently shown to promote longevity in mammals is Vitamin E (Navarro et al., 2005). Given in a high dose, it led to increased life span in a senescence-accelerated mouse strain (CD-1/UCadiz; 40% in males, 14% in females). Moreover, Vitamin E-treated male mice showed better neuromuscular function and exploratory activity until 78 weeks of age."

 

[Hans]

showed better neuromuscular function and exploratory activity

Interesting, vit E increase dopamine?

 

[Dan W]

Did these people do labs to confirm or were they basing these off of how they feel?

I think so, but I'm not sure. Here's one I found, although I guess you could read it as them just observing for DHT-ish effects:

Because of [the rugby study], I've personally tested creatine's effects on my DHT levels and haven't found a noticeable effect after at least two trials with a several month washout period.

That mouse study is really intriguing!

 

[DHT]

Looking for information on creatine and DHT on the internet, the only study I find is one dealing with young rugby players in South Africa, will there be more information about it? other source or scientific study? someone will have information or a link to share? Thank you!!!

yes it increase DHT its so obvious you dont need even a study . Remember everything ****** substance which increase ATP energy will directly increase testosterone production and also convertion to DHT. Why it is because your body has more energy and he will start use this energy for reproduction

 

[schultz]

yes it increase DHT its so obvious you dont need even a study . Remember everything ****** substance which increase ATP energy will directly increase testosterone production and also convertion to DHT. Why it is because your body has more energy and he will start use this energy for reproduction

This makes sense (except the asterisked word... I can't figure out what word was supposed to go there lol). I suppose if creatine is shifting the whole system in the right direction, then what you're getting at would make sense. The study I posted about reduced lipofuscin seems to indicate a better energy metabolism in general from taking creatine, as well an overall protective effect. It only makes sense that the hormones follow suit to a degree.

 

[RedStaR]

The study tested for serum DHT.

Which DHT are you interested in again?

 

[DavePalumbo]

There can only be one.... dht.

I don't believe the increase in dht either. It's junk. I've tried creatine myself and it simply does not work. Creatine uses one of the same transporters as glutamate and this can cause affective blunting or flattening, which people mistake for what it feels like to use dht.

Note that bodybuilders sometimes consume massive amounts of creatine, 20g and above, and experience no symptoms of increased dht.

This "increased dht" is probably short-lived (like an hour or so) or it only happens in people taking steroids (like rugby players)... or something else.

 

[Mossy]

My experience with creatine has been mostly positive, and the negative is questionable and not yet fully verified.

From a very weak state, six months ago I started to work out, supplementing with creatine, BCAAs, and other amino acids. I have not had labs in 6 months, but as others have suggested, the effects of DHT on the body are evident: my muscle mass has increased, my strength has increased, and my libido and beard growth have slightly increased. When I say my strength has increased, I mean I went from working out with no weight (bar only), to using weight on par with the heaviest I've ever used.

I do have body hair, consistent with estrogen influence, and I do still battle with some fatigue and immune system issues; and, I'm thinking that the creatine may be slowly effecting my head hair (negatively), but the verdict is still out. All-in-all, I'm convinced of the DHT benefit of creatine; until I can confirm it is negatively effecting my hair, I'll continue using it.

 

[DavePalumbo]

People consistently make this mistake. I cannot fathom how people can be so shortsighted. They try a chemical for one of its properties. But what about the thousands of other properties the chemical has? It's like trying amphetamine because it raises catecholamines and catecholamines may ever so slightly increase androgens, and then saying you noticed more energy as a pointer to it having increased androgens.. I think the increased energy was from the increased catecholamines.

First of all, dht does not add muscle size. Secondly, creatine increases water retention in the muscles and improves endurance which includes strength. This has nothing to do with increasing dht.

If your dht was increased then you should expect to feel the metabolites of dht working, just as if your testosterone was increased you should expect to see some nipple flaring or signs of increased estrogen.

The signs of increased dht are mainly related to mood and attention. So more focused, more apathetic, more relaxed.
Interestingly, creatine reduces glutamate levels which can cause affective flattening which can give people the illusion of dht-like effects while it has nothing to do with that.

 

[Vesi]

Creatine is mandatory for movement (life in general), and athletes have faster turnover of creatine. Rugby is extremely demanding compared to most sports. These combined with insufficient nutrition, it could lead to limitations in other aspects of methylation pathway, for example in manufacturing of hormones, like testosterone. They supplemented creatine -> body doesn't have to manufacture it anymore -> body can create other substances in methylation -> increased DHT. I.e. context.

 

[Mossy]

People consistently make this mistake. I cannot fathom how people can be so shortsighted. They try a chemical for one of its properties. But what about the thousands of other properties the chemical has? It's like trying amphetamine because it raises catecholamines and catecholamines may ever so slightly increase androgens, and then saying you noticed more energy as a pointer to it having increased androgens.. I think the increased energy was from the increased catecholamines.

First of all, dht does not add muscle size. Secondly, creatine increases water retention in the muscles and improves endurance which includes strength. This has nothing to do with increasing dht.

If your dht was increased then you should expect to feel the metabolites of dht working, just as if your testosterone was increased you should expect to see some nipple flaring or signs of increased estrogen.

The signs of increased dht are mainly related to mood and attention. So more focused, more apathetic, more relaxed.
Interestingly, creatine reduces glutamate levels which can cause affective flattening which can give people the illusion of dht-like effects while it has nothing to do with that.

As the saying goes, "you can't see the forest for the trees".

So, all the seemingly DHT-esque results I should abandon as "illsuion of dht-like effects"? I once was blind, but now I see -- it's that simple. I was weak and emaciated, and now I'm not -- it's not rocket science. Wow, I just used three cliches!

I get the need to be discerning and accurate, but really, the cliche fits, "you can't see the forest for the trees." Let's say you're right, that it's not truly increasing DHT -- It's working to some degree and helping me in a way that I'm told DHT would. As opportunity allows and I can measure on how it's effecting me specifically, I will -- but, in the mean time, I'll reap the benefits of it.

 

[DavePalumbo]

You have misunderstood dht and what it does. Creatine is anabolic, bla bla bla but not because of increasing androgens.

 

[NathanK]

That Rugby study has yet to be replicated anywhere. I have serious doubts on creatine's ability to increase DHT

 

[DavePalumbo]

That Rugby study has yet to be replicated anywhere. I have serious doubts on creatine's ability to increase DHT

Has anyone tried replicating it?

 

[NathanK]

Has anyone tried replicating it?

Aside from countless individuals, which I have never seen an increase either, often failed/uncorroborated studies don't see the light of day

 

[DavePalumbo]

Aside from countless individuals, which I have never seen an increase either, often failed/uncorroborated studies don't see the light of day

Well, I am going to try the phosphatidylserine on scrotum hypothesis. There's a rat study showing it significantly elevating dht. That's phosphatidylserine from bovine brain, not from soy beans.
Have you heard about anyone trying to replicate that study?

 

[NathanK]

Well, I am going to try the phosphatidylserine on scrotum hypothesis. There's a rat study showing it significantly elevating dht. That's phosphatidylserine from bovine brain, not from soy beans.
Have you heard about anyone trying to replicate that study?

No. Most people that actually know what that is wouldn't think there is a difference in phosphatidylserines so I haven't paid attention. What I've found is many substances that decrease stress hormones also increase T and thereby DHT. There are studies on this forum that allude to this as well (I think I even posted some years ago). I also believe this is how ashwagandah works. The better ones increase protective steroids, but not so much E.

 

[smith]

Creatine uses one of the same transporters as glutamate and this can cause affective blunting or flattening

Thanks, I had no idea about this, you're saying glutamate causes this? Glutamic acid/glutamine? What is the transporter responsible for blunted affect?