Cellular Membrane Bilipid Layer, Pufa Fluidity, Triglyceride Repletion Of Pufa At Cellular Level Etc

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I read these papers recently and it really made me stop and think about the reality on the potential merits of avoiding PUFA. How is avoiding PUFA going to help health if the body seemingly insists on repleting it? The more I have read about biology, the more this membrane fluidity seems to be a function of ambient temperature which is not really negotiable. I absolutely am not here to argue that PUFA in large amounts has any value to our health, but I am starting to question the reality of the supposed merits that avoiding its intake will offer much in the way of protection from cellular stress.

What if the advantages of avoiding PUFA stem from avoiding nutrient depleted processed foods, gmo, pesticides, chemical solvents in oils etc. What do you all think??

It seems like simply not letting your fat mass get too high may be of more value than trying to explicitly eliminate all the pufa from ones system. I read things about muscle meat and saturated fat contributing to inflammation and then my head really starts to spin... The more I look at it the more it seems that chronic stress will break down our bodies no matter what since the PUFA will always be there waiting to fire off all those free radicals.

Where can I see studies showing longevity associated with low PUFA in other animals with similar systems, e.g. chimpanzees or pigs? I'm not sure such studies exist. I am starting to doubt the key to health is really that intertwined with PUFA,,,, the PUFA thing may be more so an associated marker of malnutrition stemming from elsewhere....

Polyunsaturated fats, membrane lipids and animal
longevity


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...xt=smhpapers&usg=AOvVaw2DQFvEUr82ydD9eRJkDX9-

And

Fatty acid composition of membrane bilayers: Importance of diet polyunsaturated fat balance

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...4c8f91b&pid=1-s2.0-S0005273612000156-main.pdf

Help me out here guys, my head is starting to spin!



 

lampofred

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I am definitely not an expert, but I think PUFA is only harmful if you are experiencing stress/have low GABA/have low energy (which are all basically the same thing). But basically everyone in the world is low thyroid (except remote places which detached from society at large) because of stressful environment, low quality food, etc. So that's why it's best to minimize PUFA, to lower the effect of inevitable stress of life.
 

somuch4food

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I'm not against PUFA anymore and I think the worst of them is from packaged foods and food that are fried using PUFA rich oils especially if reheated multiple times. Those would be oxidized and damaged to the max.

I'm not expert to explain much, but I know that Peat does not really agree on the whole membrane theory and I think it's his main argument against Essential fatty acids.

If you want to go down a rabbit hole, search for PEOs - Parent Essential Oils.
 

somuch4food

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I am definitely not an expert, but I think PUFA is only harmful if you are experiencing stress/have low GABA/have low energy (which are all basically the same thing). But basically everyone in the world is low thyroid (except remote places which detached from society at large) because of stressful environment, low quality food, etc. So that's why it's best to minimize PUFA, to lower the effect of inevitable stress of life.

Totally agree. I believe that to heal you need to rid yourself of your main sources of stress which could be lifestyle choices, work, partners, PUFAs, food intolerances, deficiencies, fibers...

Mine seems to be mainly caused by lutein, a carotenoid. Just saying it can be almost anything... Better put your detective hat on.
 
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Captain_Coconut
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Totally agree. I believe that to heal you need to rid yourself of your main sources of stress which could be lifestyle choices, work, partners, PUFAs, food intolerances, deficiencies, fibers...

Mine seems to be mainly caused by lutein, a carotenoid. Just saying it can be almost anything... Better put your detective hat on.

I have experimented a lot with diet and supplements to reduce pain of chronic inflammation, to speed up healing and recovery, sense of well-being, and to drop a few pounds of body fat from around my gut. The list of different disciplines and trials is starting to become endless. I have made some progress, mainly I have good body temperature, less pain, and a generally positive outlook on life. What is bothering me is very slow gains in the gym, gut fat which does not budge, subtle pain which still lingers. I have tried so many things, all that is really left for me to try is to cut out or extremely limit cheese and muscle meat and to increase plant fiber intake. I have been on a low pufa diet for many years, limiting more extremely in 2018 did not make any noticeable difference. Cutting out starch, no difference. Flushing out gut, small difference. Increasing juice and sugar, small difference. Cutting out alcohol, no difference. Optimizing sleep, small difference. Exercising, small difference. Switching back to olive oil and butter, ditching coconut oil, decent difference. Switching back to high fiber, decent difference. Reintroducing nuts, decent difference. Endless list of supplements, small difference. The list is too long to cover completely here.

I am at a point where I think it may be all endotoxin related and that ice cream, cheese and meat are being consumed too often, and that is keeping me overweight and struggling with energy. I generally have a serving of meat or cheese every day. I started looking at these foods because they basically are the last thing I have not eliminated experimentally. I recently have read some convincing data on endotoxin in meat, cheese, and ice cream. I don’t want to give up these foods, but it seems plausible they are largely to blame.
 
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Hugh Johnson

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I read these papers recently and it really made me stop and think about the reality on the potential merits of avoiding PUFA. How is avoiding PUFA going to help health if the body seemingly insists on repleting it? The more I have read about biology, the more this membrane fluidity seems to be a function of ambient temperature which is not really negotiable. I absolutely am not here to argue that PUFA in large amounts has any value to our health, but I am starting to question the reality of the supposed merits that avoiding its intake will offer much in the way of protection from cellular stress.

What if the advantages of avoiding PUFA stem from avoiding nutrient depleted processed foods, gmo, pesticides, chemical solvents in oils etc. What do you all think??

It seems like simply not letting your fat mass get too high may be of more value than trying to explicitly eliminate all the pufa from ones system. I read things about muscle meat and saturated fat contributing to inflammation and then my head really starts to spin... The more I look at it the more it seems that chronic stress will break down our bodies no matter what since the PUFA will always be there waiting to fire off all those free radicals.

Where can I see studies showing longevity associated with low PUFA in other animals with similar systems, e.g. chimpanzees or pigs? I'm not sure such studies exist. I am starting to doubt the key to health is really that intertwined with PUFA,,,, the PUFA thing may be more so an associated marker of malnutrition stemming from elsewhere....

Polyunsaturated fats, membrane lipids and animal
longevity

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjgjduuxsHgAhVpkuAKHeBiA-AQFjASegQIDBAC&url=http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2458&context=smhpapers&usg=AOvVaw2DQFvEUr82ydD9eRJkDX9-

And

Fatty acid composition of membrane bilayers: Importance of diet polyunsaturated fat balance

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...4c8f91b&pid=1-s2.0-S0005273612000156-main.pdf

Help me out here guys, my head is starting to spin!


Rats are not people, and in the first one lower PI is associated with longevity.
 

somuch4food

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I am at a point where I think it may be all endotoxin related

That's also what I think. I also think that sources of endotoxins will be different for everyone since nobody is the same. We have all different gut bacteria and history.

Since coming to this conclusion, I've started trying to eat more intuitively.
 
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Captain_Coconut
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Rats are not people, and in the first one lower PI is associated with longevity.
Sure the lower PI is better, however the change in dietary lipids being consumed makes no change. The saturated fat in the membranes stays at the same level regardless. I’m guessing human cells would respond the same way seeing as how I have experienced chronic inflammation while being on extremely low pufa diets in the past.
 

Makrosky

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PUFA depletion is a hype. Countries with top life expectancies consume rich PUFA foods.

Japan? PUFA
Australia ? PUFA
Singapur? PUFA
Spain ? PUFA
Iceland? PUFA
Italy? PUFA
And so on...

I think problem is only PUFA refined oils like canola, corn, soy, sunflower, etc... and even worse if they are used for frying and processed food.
 
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Hugh Johnson

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Sure the lower PI is better, however the change in dietary lipids being consumed makes no change. The saturated fat in the membranes stays at the same level regardless. I’m guessing human cells would respond the same way seeing as how I have experienced chronic inflammation while being on extremely low pufa diets in the past.
You are not posting primary sources, so it is actually impossible to evaluate your claims. So I'm just going to challenge your presuppostition about membranes:

Membranes, plasma membranes, and surfaces
 
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Hans

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What is bothering me is very slow gains in the gym, gut fat which does not budge
I've been making great gains lately on a very low PUFA diet. Diet isn't everything when it comes to building muscle. For bulking it's about 50/50. I've consumed a lot of junk food when bulking in the past and I've thought my gains were good then, but now, being very low PUFA, my gains are so much better.
Stubborn belly fat can just be due to excess calories. Not everyone can speed up their metabolism and consume 4000 calories and stay shredded. This is just an example, and I'm not referring to you. I'm also not expecting myself to stay shredded when eating over 3000 calories. But since I've lowered PUFAs, cleaned out my gut, avoided starches, I'm feeling great, and getting leaner, building muscle faster, etc.
So what I'm trying to say, if your gains are really slow, maybe you need a different training program.
Sure the lower PI is better, however the change in dietary lipids being consumed makes no change. The saturated fat in the membranes stays at the same level regardless. I’m guessing human cells would respond the same way seeing as how I have experienced chronic inflammation while being on extremely low pufa diets in the past.
It's not impossible to get inflammation without PUFAs. One important thing is to displace the PUFAs in the cell membranes, even when on a low PUFAs diet, with stearic acid. Excess inflammation can also be caused by estrogen, cortisol, low thyroid, degenerated thymus and spleen, etc.

On another note, Travis mentioned that unsaturated fat is needed for glucose influx and if the cell membranes consisted mainly of saturated fat, glucose influx would be greatly reduced. I also read a study some time ago, which I cannot find anymore, that resistance exercise increases the amount of PUFAs in the cell membranes due to a greater need for glucose influx. But oleic and mead acid, which can be made in the body, could fulfill that need.
 
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Captain_Coconut
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PUFA depletion is a hype. Countries with top life expectancies consume rich PUFA foods.

Japan? PUFA
Australia ? PUFA
Singapur? PUFA
Spain ? PUFA
Iceland? PUFA
Italy? PUFA
And so on...

I think problem is only PUFA refined oils like canola, corn, soy, sunflower, etc... and even worse if they are used for frying and processed food.

Starting to agree with you on this. The PUFA in refined oils is devoid of so many things compared to whole foods with some PUFA. It is a bit like downing iron files instead of eating some liver.
 
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Captain_Coconut
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I've been making great gains lately on a very low PUFA diet. Diet isn't everything when it comes to building muscle. For bulking it's about 50/50. I've consumed a lot of junk food when bulking in the past and I've thought my gains were good then, but now, being very low PUFA, my gains are so much better.
Stubborn belly fat can just be due to excess calories. Not everyone can speed up their metabolism and consume 4000 calories and stay shredded. This is just an example, and I'm not referring to you. I'm also not expecting myself to stay shredded when eating over 3000 calories. But since I've lowered PUFAs, cleaned out my gut, avoided starches, I'm feeling great, and getting leaner, building muscle faster, etc.
So what I'm trying to say, if your gains are really slow, maybe you need a different training program.

It's not impossible to get inflammation without PUFAs. One important thing is to displace the PUFAs in the cell membranes, even when on a low PUFAs diet, with stearic acid. Excess inflammation can also be caused by estrogen, cortisol, low thyroid, degenerated thymus and spleen, etc.

On another note, Travis mentioned that unsaturated fat is needed for glucose influx and if the cell membranes consisted mainly of saturated fat, glucose influx would be greatly reduced. I also read a study some time ago, which I cannot find anymore, that resistance exercise increases the amount of PUFAs in the cell membranes due to a greater need for glucose influx. But oleic and mead acid, which can be made in the body, could fulfill that need.

Thanks Hans. Good points! I have made gains in the past on low PUFA. I still think low pufa is important, don’t get me wrong there, I am just starting to give up on it in terms of being some panacea of health. Right now my gut just seems inflammed, I think my body is too busy struggling with that so gains are not being made. It is a low grade inflammation which all I can suspect at this point to be causing this is endotoxin load,,, I thought it was endogogenous endotoxin but doing things like activated charcoal that used to fix me up right away are making little difference. I am starting to suspect it is coming from the quality of animal products I frequently consume (the only major foreign endotoxin source I am in contact with). My new experiment is to only eat eggs as staple animal protein.
 
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Hans

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Thanks Hans. Good points! I have made gains in the past on low PUFA. I still think low pufa is important, don’t get me wrong there, I am just starting to give up on it in terms of being some panacea of health. Right now my gut just seems inflammed, I think my body is too busy struggling with that so gains are not being made. It is a low grade inflammation which all I can suspect at this point to be causing this is endotoxin load,,, I thought it was endogogenous endotoxin but doing things like activated charcoal that used to fix me up right away are making little difference. I am starting to suspect it is coming from the quality of animal products I frequently consume (the only major foreign endotoxin source I am in contact with). My new experiment is to only eat eggs as staple animal protein.
What foods do you think is the most detrimental to your gut health at the moment?
Supplements can also cause gut problems. Do you think that might contribute in your case?
 

Hugh Johnson

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I can't access the full study. In any case, if you eat significant amounts of PUFA you will poison your mitochondria, which matters more than discussion about some "membrane", a concept that has some serious issues. None of the studies you posted have even established dietary PUFA to be necessary in any way.
 
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Captain_Coconut
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I can't access the full study. In any case, if you eat significant amounts of PUFA you will poison your mitochondria, which matters more than discussion about some "membrane", a concept that has some serious issues. None of the studies you posted have even established dietary PUFA to be necessary in any way.

As I stated in my original post I’m not here to argue for the value of PUFA. My point is I think the obsession over depleting it or keeping it under 2 grams a day etc is simply not as important as I once thought it to be. I think lipid peroxidation is damaging at the cellular level... I am not sure where else it would be causing cellular damage if not through oxidizing pufa surrounding the cell if that is how you prefer to think of it instead of refering to it as a membrane...
 
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Captain_Coconut
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What foods do you think is the most detrimental to your gut health at the moment?
Supplements can also cause gut problems. Do you think that might contribute in your case?

I think it must be aged dairy, ice cream (which I just learned is usually high in endotoxin), and or muscle meats as those are the last things I have yet to experiment with eliminating. I have been very lethargic after cheese and meat heavy meals. Going off of all supplements for a week or two has made little difference. I should add that I suspect basically keeping indigestible fiber to a minimum for all of 2018 was a mistake. I feel better with fiber.
 

lampofred

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I think it must be aged dairy, ice cream (which I just learned is usually high in endotoxin), and or muscle meats as those are the last things I have yet to experiment with eliminating. I have been very lethargic after cheese and meat heavy meals. Going off of all supplements for a week or two has made little difference. I should add that I suspect basically keeping indigestible fiber to a minimum for all of 2018 was a mistake. I feel better with fiber.

I don't know if this might help, but I just read a Peat quote saying that sleeping less is way to lower serotonin/lethargy for hypothyroid people.
 

Waremu

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PUFA depletion is a hype. Countries with top life expectancies consume rich PUFA foods.

Japan? PUFA
Australia ? PUFA
Singapur? PUFA
Spain ? PUFA
Iceland? PUFA
Italy? PUFA
And so on...

I think problem is only PUFA refined oils like canola, corn, soy, sunflower, etc... and even worse if they are used for frying and processed food.


If you think it’s hype then why do you spend time on here (a forum that advocates PUFA avoidance as much as is realistically possible) trying to convince people it is hype? Why not go to some other forum and tell them about how great you think PUFA is?

If you’re in disagreement and want to get to what the truth of the matter concerning PUFA by having a reasonable conversation then that’s one thing...many people have disagreements here, but trying to argue that PUFA is not an issue here, I don’t see the point..

Ray Peat has written extensively about this and many have already gone over these topics on this forum. Ray Peat does not agree with a lot of the cell membrane theories espoused by those who think all PUFA is essential, etc.

Ray has mentioned that many of these countries eat relatively low calorie and when one eats low calorie, a lot of the effects of PUFA are mitigated because they are burned off and not stored.

However, continually burning PUFA for energy can have its own problems as it is not healthy to the mitochondria as well. Also, many of these countries have moved to a more modern diet and have left their more traditional diets and many of these diets were lower in PUFA than they are today. Many of these countries simply did not have the acess torn he cheap cotonseed oils today like they did decades ago. But in many of these counties the obesity rate over the last few decades and century had gone UP, NOT down. Even in large parts of Asia people are getting fatter. So you are using these countries to try to say PUFA isn’t bad but these countries have increasingly become more unhealthy over the last century so that actually wouldn’t give credence to your case but it would give more support to what Ray Peat says.

Lastly, PUFA isn’t the only problem Peat talks about. There are other factors that lead to poor health as well.
 
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