Can You Deplete PUFA While Still Eating Butter, Chocolate, Etc

[DHT]

I knew stress was good for you!

Well what sort of stress older people do not have and make them burn less pufa?

physicial hard stress like sports. Only Physicial Activities which go over your natural capacities will burn your pufas. I think pufas are acting like stubborn fat in your body. This type of bodyfat will only burned last and also under extreme circumstances. I think this mechanisim excists because the pufa metabolites are exetremely toxic to your body.
Adrenalien, nor adrenaline, cortisol, hgh, testosterone and DHT are you friends when you want burn pufas

 

[shepherdgirl]

Thanks @tca300 !

Thank you @Lukas for reposting @schultz ' post - interesting that the low pufa diet initially caused a cholesterol buildup in the liver but a depletion elsewhere. And that the hco group apparently had this same cholesterol phenomenon as the no-fat group, but only for a week. Is that 25%HCO as a percent of total calories?
I guess the main point of the study is that the hco group depleted pufa faster and had the highest metabolic rates, which seems counterintuitive, especially with a 25% fat diet. I remember hearing interviews with Ray where he mentioned that livestock lost weight when they were fed co, and people lost weight when they used to put co in cookies and chips. Also he has mentioned that old rats fed hydrogenated peanut oil restored their mitochondrial respiration.

 

[DHT]

Thanks @tca300 !

Thank you @Lukas for reposting @schultz ' post - interesting that the low pufa diet initially caused a cholesterol buildup in the liver but a depletion elsewhere. And that the hco group apparently had this same cholesterol phenomenon as the no-fat group, but only for a week. Is that 25%HCO as a percent of total calories?
I guess the main point of the study is that the hco group depleted pufa faster and had the highest metabolic rates, which seems counterintuitive, especially with a 25% fat diet. I remember hearing interviews with Ray where he mentioned that livestock lost weight when they were fed co, and people lost weight when they used to put co in cookies and chips. Also he has mentioned that old rats fed hydrogenated peanut oil restored their mitochondrial respiration.

coconut oil has alot of selenium which is important to convert t4 in t3 in your liver

 

[shepherdgirl]

@DHT
Maybe that's one reason why it helps metabolism so much. But hydrogenated peanut oil also helps metabolism, and i think that has a lot less selenium, so there may be more than just one factor that helps.

 

[sladerunner69]

It's possible, but without micronutrient supplementation its not possible ( to my knowledge) to achieve needed vitamins and minerals.
The amount of PUFA you eat ( provided your in a calorie surplus ) will dictate the rate at which in accumulates.
Which is why coconut oil, aspirin and vitamin E are so important.

Why would PUFA only accumulate during caloric surplus though?

 

[schultz]

Then has somebody tried to figure out how to burn pufa better or more?

I think the muscles will burn fat at rest. Having more muscle would be protective.

Is that 25%HCO as a percent of total calories?

Yah total calories. It just happens to be the percent they noticed the largest effect with. You would likely still get an effect with something like 10% but it wouldn't be as big. There was a much more recent study from 2010 where they used 4% HCO and they didn't notice a difference between the no-fat and the HCO group.

I guess the main point of the study is that the hco group depleted pufa faster and had the highest metabolic rates

I'm not sure they did deplete their PUFA faster. I'll have to go back and see what the authors say. Studies seem to suggest the higher metabolic rate though.

What I am usually talking about when I am discussing essential fatty acid deficiency is not necessarily how much PUFA someone has stored but how much Mead acid someone is making and how much the metabolism is increased. These are the two things I am interested in the most, mostly because I find them interesting, but also because it's more realistic than complete PUFA removal but still has a lot of the benefits of that. You can create "essential fatty acid deficiency" simply by hooking an IV of sugar up while you sleep so that no fat is ever released from storage. You'll be in an EFAD state, but your body fat will still contain PUFA. Maybe I confused people when I was talking about EFAD, but in the literature when they talk about essential fatty acid deficiency they are not talking about PUFA being completely gone from the body. This is what @tca300 is talking about and it's a bit different than what I am usually talking about.

I used to research a lot of animal studies, especially chicken studies (I had an obsession with trying to figure out how much PUFA an egg would have given a certain amount of PUFA in the diet), regarding this topic and I recall one study on chickens where they basically had a fat-free diet for an entire year. The chickens still had stored PUFA after the year, and they get rid of some through laying eggs. I think they had 3.73% as triglycerides down from around 20.5%. It would be interesting to see what they would have been at 4 years (probably dead lol). BTW those chickens at 14 weeks on the diet had eggs that were slightly under 2% PUFA. So assuming 5g of fat in the egg, they would have eggs with 0.1g of PUFA, which would be awesome because you could eat like 10 a day!! I used to have chickens and estimated my eggs had 0.3g of PUFA per egg. It was a wee bit OCD, but somehow it was fun so I didn't care. I should get chickens again!! (my pig ate them all ) Anyway, I love discussing this stuff.

For reference, this is the study I was referring to regarding chickens: The Syntheses and Interconversions of Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids by the Laying Hen
This is the study I was referring to when talking about 4% HCO: Early development of essential fatty acid deficiency in rats: fat-free vs. hydrogenated coconut oil diet. - PubMed - NCBI

From this paper...
"EFAD diets containing hydrogenated coconut oil amplify the clinical signs of fatty acid deficiency but do not change the tissue concentrations of essential fatty acids compared with fat-free diets."

 

[tca300]

Why would PUFA only accumulate during caloric surplus though?

" Even a moderate intake of PUFA becomes toxic eventually with a high calorie intake, because it’s stored rather than being used right away as fuel. " Ray Peat

 

[tca300]

EFAD diets containing hydrogenated coconut oil amplify the clinical signs of fatty acid deficiency but do not change the tissue concentrations of essential fatty acids compared with fat-free diets."

Very cool!

 

[tara]

coconut oil has alot of selenium which is important to convert t4 in t3 in your liver

Is that the unrefined stuff?

 

[DHT]

Is that the unrefined stuff?

think the unrefined has higher selenium content but im not sure. I red a study where the the farmers used to fed the pigs with coconut oil but they didnt fattened. So it wasnt beneficial for them to feed them with coconut oil, then the oil industry came up with their high pufa oil content . Then they fed their pigs with it and suddenly they got fattened. Conclusion of study was then that coconut oil made their pigs slim and pufa oil made them fat. I think the selenium content and other minerals plays here huge role compared to the fat ratio

 

[tara]

I think the selenium content and other minerals plays here huge role compared to the fat ratio

I thought the refined coconut oil was pretty purely fat. Didn't expect it to have much of any mineral in it.

 

[schultz]

I would like to point out that PUFA won't accumulate ad infinitum. If someone is eating 2g per day consistently then there will be a peak amount of the fat that the body stores. It's not like the person is going to end up with 30% bodyfat as PUFA.

Assuming the body actually does completely turnover its fat stores after approximately 4 years (based off this paper), the cap will be based on the amount being consumed in the diet and the turnover rate. This of course assumes a static state where the person isn't attempting to lose bodyfat through exercise. Also, if the person is eating a caloric surplus, and we still assume the 2g per day, it is likely the person will store more of the 2g (though not necessarily all of it). It may depend also further depend on the food source. Ray talked about how eating a carrot with a fatty meal can cause some of the fat to not be absorbed. It's possible the same holds true for fruit to a degree. If all your PUFA comes from fruit, and the food database says you're consuming 2g per day, it's possible only half of that (a random amount, for the purposes of making a point) is being absorbed, considering the fibre and the cell structure of the fruit. Compare this to something like rice with sesame oil, which may be easier to absorb (the fat that is).

Here is some evidence of that in rats: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/tjem1920/176/4/176_4_227/_pdf

"The daily fat excretion per gram of dried stools (Fig. 3) was the highest in the rats given the 15% pectin diet (69.7±15.7 mg), followed by the rats given the non-fiber and 15% cellulose diets (31.9 + 9.0 mg and 9.8 + 0.3 mg, respectively). However, the total daily fat excretion was 134.6+ 13.7 mg in the 15% pectin diet group, 79.8± 8.8 mg in the 15% cellulose diet group, and 42.1±4.3 mg in the non-fiber diet group."

"The present finding that dietary fiber suppresses the absorption of fat supports the hypothesis that dietary fiber inhibits the development of the two diseases."

Vitamin E may also have an affect on all of this, as mentioned by people previously in the thread, though I don't know much about this.

 

[RobertJM]

So basically just keep a vitamin E supplement on hand for the rest of your life. Seems prudent. And remember. It's not only PUFA that E helps protect against. It also protects against exsessive iron (which also accumulates with age). And it raises progesterone, which is the basis of a lot of Peat's work, and represents a hormone which profoundly protects the organism. I've always wondered why people here can't just eat PUFA a bit more liberally (not totally crazy, though) and just take vitamin E each day?

Aspirin confuses me. Sure take it everyday to inhibit the release of FFAs, but at what dosages. Plus every time I take it, it gives me mouth ulcers. Does anyone know of any pure sources of aspirin? Aspirin that isn't likely to irritate? I've tried the animal stuff, and it just has the same effect. It's a shame, because nothing nails inflammation like aspirin does (for me).

 

[DHT]

So basically just keep a vitamin E supplement on hand for the rest of your life. Seems prudent. And remember. It's not only PUFA that E helps protect against. It also protects against exsessive iron (which also accumulates with age). And it raises progesterone, which is the basis of a lot of Peat's work, and represents a hormone which profoundly protects the organism. I've always wondered why people here can't just eat PUFA a bit more liberally (not totally crazy, though) and just take vitamin E each day?

Aspirin confuses me. Sure take it everyday to inhibit the release of FFAs, but at what dosages. Plus every time I take it, it gives me mouth ulcers. Does anyone know of any pure sources of aspirin? Aspirin that isn't likely to irritate? I've tried the animal stuff, and it just has the same effect. It's a shame, because nothing nails inflammation like aspirin does (for me).

i took the one from bayer i went up to 3 or even 3,5 gramm aspirin which is about 6 or 7 tablets. Didnt have any problems also i took it everytime on empty stomach sometimes with coffe or not. Only thing which i noticed from this high dose was slighty better bloodflow and also i felt more warm. I also started to smell little bit sweet which i think is the smell of dhea or progesterone which kicks in after aspirin.

 

[RedStaR]

i took the one from bayer i went up to 3 or even 3,5 gramm aspirin which is about 6 or 7 tablets. Didnt have any problems also i took it everytime on empty stomach sometimes with coffe or not. Only thing which i noticed from this high dose was slighty better bloodflow and also i felt more warm. I also started to smell little bit sweet which i think is the smell of dhea or progesterone which kicks in after aspirin.

Too much aspirin is not good for you, especially chronic intake.

 

[Luann]

You can create "essential fatty acid deficiency" simply by hooking an IV of sugar up while you sleep so that no fat is ever released from storage. You'll be in an EFAD state, but your body fat will still contain PUFA.

I think you have to be on a fat-free diet too or you still wind up with free fatty acids? But I am glad that you bring this up, it's known that failing to feed an IV patient for 12 hours or probably less will "alleviate" a fatty acid deficiency.

("deficiency.")

 

[schultz]

I think you have to be on a fat-free diet too or you still wind up with free fatty acids? But I am glad that you bring this up, it's known that failing to feed an IV patient for 12 hours or probably less will "alleviate" a fatty acid deficiency.

("deficiency.")

I'm not sure. If someone was doing a low PUFA diet at 2g or so, eating frequently during the day, then IV at night I wonder what would happen?

What I was getting at is that the deficiency signs can be produced very quickly, like what you're talking about, a fat-free diet + IV at night. I was just trying to make the point that you can have the deficiency while simultaneously having lots of PUFA in storage.

 

[Luann]

"What I was getting at is that the deficiency signs can be produced very quickly, like what you're talking about, a fat-free diet + IV at night. I was just trying to make the point that you can have the deficiency while simultaneously having lots of PUFA in storage."

Oh I agree. Within like a week. And yes stores of PUFA could still be high.

And I think what would happen using the IV at night and diet low in fat, is you would get much less oxidation of fat and maybe dry skin if you weren't using B6.

 

[RobertJM]

Too much aspirin is not good for you, especially chronic intake.

How come?

 

[shepherdgirl]

Wow @schultz !! I can't believe your pig ate all your chickens! My condolences, especially since they laid low pufa eggs! What did those eggs taste like, anyway? What did you feed your birds, coconut meat? farmer's cheese? I would expect they would have lived much longer than average chickens. (If it weren't for you-know-who...)
I had no idea that one could receive the benefits of pufa depletion such as making mead acid without actually depleting pufa. So do you think it could be that mead acid production and metabolic rate are simply sensitive to the level and type of ffa in the blood and/or to the by-products of pufa oxidation?
OTOH, how is it that HCO could prevent pufa oxidation when it seems to promote fat loss, more so than a very lowfat diet? What I mean is, not only is dietary hco burned, but with dietary hco consumption body fat seems to be lost as well. Perhaps mead acid production is sensitive to the ratio of pufa ffa to sat fat ffa? I notice that only a CONSTANT supply of 100% sugar was mentioned as inducing mead acid production - would a very low fat, high carb diet without overnight feeding suppress mead acid production (and possibly lower metabolism) due to a high proportion of unsaturated ffa in the blood at night?
Is it possible that there is a sweet spot where hco increases metabolic rate enough that it slowly eliminates pufa, while meanwhile diluting the pufa so mead acid can be made? So at first the body "acts as if" pufa depleted by producing mead acid and a high metabolism, and then the high metabolism produces true pufa depletion? Maybe it could be argued that the pufa will be preferentially stored. This is something I still don't understand - if the body preferentially stores pufa over sat fat, and burns off sat fat first, how could we ever achieve true depletion without first burning off all of our sat body fat?