Can You Deplete PUFA While Still Eating Butter, Chocolate, Etc

[shepherdgirl]

@tca300
If more than half a gram of pufa was eaten, but I supplemented Vit E or mitolipin, would some of the dietary pufa be eliminated and therefore "not count"?
In your opinion which depletes pufa faster: staying under .5g pufa and very low fat, or staying under .5g pufa and eating enough fully hydrogenated co to have a low pufa to sat fat ratio?

 

[tca300]

@tca300
If more than half a gram of pufa was eaten, but I supplemented Vit E or mitolipin, would some of the dietary pufa be eliminated and therefore "not count"?
In your opinion which depletes pufa faster: staying under .5g pufa and very low fat, or staying under .5g pufa and eating enough fully hydrogenated co to have a low pufa to sat fat ratio?

The vitamin E will help protect from stored PUFA.
The problem with eating high fat from hydrogenated coconut oil is that any ingested PUFA will be stored ( unless in a calorie deficit ) while the coconut oil is being used for fuel, which is why eating a high fat diet from hydrogenated coconut oil will only work if your PUFA ingestion is zero, which cant really be done outside a lab.

Its not practical, as Ray says, keeping the metabolic rate up via calcium, magnesium, light, vitamin D, low phosphorus, some coconut oil, and avoiding vegetable oils, or other high PUFA foods is the main thing.

 

[shepherdgirl]

Thanks for your answers @tca300 . Greatly appreciated!
I wonder what happens to the pufa that is blocked by vit. e? does it still remain in the body as stored pufa? Is it purged without being burned?
Although i have been avoiding pufa pretty strictly for two years, i am worried that going super low fat might be too much detoxing at once for my liver, and also that all the pufa that come into circulation will kill my metabolism/thyroid (just like paleo did), and worse still that some pufa will be reabsorbed. Would it be less risky to have a small amount of hydrogenated co (not a high fat diet, and yes low calorie, but maybe eating enough hco to dilute the fat in the blood and protect the brain/body from too fast of a detox)? I have done 2 week stints of very low pufa, very low fat, and my belly has not budged - maybe I need slow depletion to bring pufa levels down enough that I can handle more aggressive depletion.

 

[tca300]

Thanks for your answers @tca300 . Greatly appreciated!
I wonder what happens to the pufa that is blocked by vit. e? does it still remain in the body as stored pufa? Is it purged without being burned?
Although i have been avoiding pufa pretty strictly for two years, i am worried that going super low fat might be too much detoxing at once for my liver, and also that all the pufa that come into circulation will kill my metabolism/thyroid (just like paleo did), and worse still that some pufa will be reabsorbed. Would it be less risky to have a small amount of hydrogenated co (not a high fat diet, and yes low calorie, but maybe eating enough hco to dilute the fat in the blood and protect the brain/body from too fast of a detox)? I have done 2 week stints of very low pufa, very low fat, and my belly has not budged - maybe I need slow depletion to bring pufa levels down enough that I can handle more aggressive depletion.

My understanding is that vitamin E can hydrogenate pufa and also protect from its oxidative effects etc..
I think some hydrogenated coconut oil is beneficial, I use about 1 tablespoon per day if im not using mct oil.
Unfortunately weight loss is painfully slow for most, and probably should be because of wanting to limit how much free fatty acids are released. A good number to go by I think is losing between .75 - 1.5% of total body weight per week meaning for 150 lb person that would be a loss of about 1 - 2.25 lbs per week, more is likely to be unnecessarily stressfull, and will really dip into dissolving lean body mass for glucose. Keeping protein and sugars up is important too.

 

[Lukas]

From the studies I have seen, 1% PUFA seems to be the common minimum "requirement" for animals. You will still be making mead acid at 2 and 3% PUFA but below 1% is where is starts to take off. I think the standard way of measuring deficiency is still the triene:tetraene at 0.4. When PUFA is low (at 1% or under) cholesterol increases the ratio (increases deficiency). I don't know where to get cholesterol though . Hydrogenated coconut oil also increases the ratio.



Quote below from this study... http://jn.nutrition.org/content/55/2/337.full.pdf

"The effect of the addition of hydrogenated coconut oil to the otherwise fat-free diets of rats has resulted in the depletion of essential fatty acids in a shorter time interval and at a lower animal weight than when the rats were fed a fat-free diet alone. However, the continued presence of hydrogenated coconut oil in the diet had no apparent inhibitory effect on the subsequent response of the animal to linoleate although the animals depleted with hydrogenated coco nut oil in the diet had a greater growth potential than the animals depleted on the fat-free diet.
In rats receiving diets deficient in essential fatty acids, there was an increased cholesterol concentration in the liver and a decreased cholesterol content in the plasma after one week. However, although the condition was further aggravated thereafter in the animals on the fat-free diets, cholesterol levels of the rats receiving hydrogenated coconut oil in the diets gradually returned to normal. This effect may be due to the availability of short-chain fatty acids contained in the hydrogenated fat for esterification of cholesterol."

Below shows the effect of HCO on metabolism. Notice the 25% HCO group had the highest food intake and the lowest weight gain and therefore the lowest caloric efficiency. All animals had the same calorie intake. This is the sort of thing that flies in the face of the people who say that a calorie is a calorie because these animals ate more and gained less.

 

[Xisca]

The problem with eating high fat from hydrogenated coconut oil is that any ingested PUFA will be stored ( unless in a calorie deficit ) while the coconut oil is being used for fuel, which is why eating a high fat diet from hydrogenated coconut oil will only work if your PUFA ingestion is zero, which cant really be done outside a lab.

lol Is what you call a lab some sort of tropical island with coconut trees and hot water fish?

So the problem is to not eat local? If we eat local fats like a few nuts, we should not eat coconut? And the nuts fats will be burned?

 

[tca300]

lol Is what you call a lab some sort of tropical island with coconut trees and hot water fish?

So the problem is to not eat local? If we eat local fats like a few nuts, we should not eat coconut? And the nuts fats will be burned?

Tropical fish and coconut both contain PUFA..... enough to accumulate with age, which is what this discussion is about.

 

[Xisca]

So, pufa depletion is just impossible. That is crazy. I understand reducing the % with other fats, and also caring for the omega 3 and 6 %.
After this, instead of persuing a chimere, why not focus on preventing accumulation? Shouldn't we at the same time burn pufa and other fats and glucose?

And if burning mainly lauric acids and other saturated fats prevents us from burning pufa, leading to its accumulation, then there is a fundamental problem with eating tropical fats when you do not live in the tropics!

I do not see why our bodies burn or one or another and not both, and why we do not look for ways to favor that it happens.

 

[RedStaR]

It's possible, but without micronutrient supplementation its not possible ( to my knowledge) to achieve needed vitamins and minerals.
The amount of PUFA you eat ( provided your in a calorie surplus ) will dictate the rate at which in accumulates.
Which is why coconut oil, aspirin and vitamin E are so important.

Can you still be in a caloric equiblrium and still substitute SF with PUFA? We are always replacing tissue AFAIK. Why is vitamin E important?

 

[RedStaR]

vitamin e

coconut oil

aspirin

niacinamide

will get you there. all safe, normal supplements

butter/chocolate/dairy are saturated and mono-unsaturated anyway , so yes, they can be eaten

Dairy and chocolate have decent PUFA quantities.

 

[RedStaR]

If dark chocolate is too high in pufas, then I'd rather die! Cacao fat and quality butter should be some of the lowest pufa fats, though!

I think its also about the type of PUFAs that's important. Primarily EFAs are ok if the O3O6 ratio is in balance.

 

[johnwester130]

Dairy and chocolate have decent PUFA quantities.

not really


chocolate

Saturated Fat 24.7g
Monounsaturated Fat 12.9g
Polyunsaturated Fat 1.3g
Candies, chocolate, dark, 70-85% cacao solids Nutrition Facts & Calories

first google search for milk fat
"Milk fat contains approximately 65% saturated, 30% monounsaturated, and 5% polyunsaturated fatty acids"

 

[tca300]

Can you still be in a caloric equiblrium and still substitute SF with PUFA? We are always replacing tissue AFAIK. Why is vitamin E important?

Possibly but Im not sure.
Quality Vitamin E protects from PUFA thats released from tissues.

 

[tca300]

So, pufa depletion is just impossible. That is crazy. I understand reducing the % with other fats, and also caring for the omega 3 and 6 %.
After this, instead of persuing a chimere, why not focus on preventing accumulation? Shouldn't we at the same time burn pufa and other fats and glucose?

And if burning mainly lauric acids and other saturated fats prevents us from burning pufa, leading to its accumulation, then there is a fundamental problem with eating tropical fats when you do not live in the tropics!

I do not see why our bodies burn or one or another and not both, and why we do not look for ways to favor that it happens.

With natural foods, and eating foods to assure adequate micronutrients, I do think it is impossible to completely deplete n-3 & n-6 PUFA, and to keep them from accumulating with age.
Studies show that as we age are tissues accumulate more and more PUFA indicating that the body is buring mostly saturated and monounsaturated fats in preference to PUFA. Unless it can be proven that as creatures age they eat more and more PUFA foods in relation to saturated foods, which could also explain it, but I dont see any evidence of that whatsoever.

 

[RedStaR]

not really


chocolate

Saturated Fat 24.7g
Monounsaturated Fat 12.9g
Polyunsaturated Fat 1.3g
Candies, chocolate, dark, 70-85% cacao solids Nutrition Facts & Calories

first google search for milk fat
"Milk fat contains approximately 65% saturated, 30% monounsaturated, and 5% polyunsaturated fatty acids"

Right, I remember them higher than that.

Dark chocolate (and cocoa dutch powder), and full-fat milk/fermented milk are a large chunk of my daily diet. Now I can sleep better at night.

 

[Xisca]

the body is burning mostly saturated and monounsaturated fats in preference to PUFA.

Then has somebody tried to figure out how to burn pufa better or more?

 

[lampofred]

Then has somebody tried to figure out how to burn pufa better or more?

Yes... Stress.

You'll burn pure PUFA

 

[Xisca]

I knew stress was good for you!

Well what sort of stress older people do not have and make them burn less pufa?

 

[lampofred]

I knew stress was good for you!

Well what sort of stress older people do not have and make them burn less pufa?

No, I was being sarcastic... Literally all of Peat's work is about avoiding stress so that you don't burn PUFAs. Yes, stress will deplete PUFAs, but the whole point of avoiding PUFAs is that so you don't burn them during stress. Does that make sense?

Don't go stress yourself out to burn PUFAs. That's the worst thing you can do.

 

[Xisca]

avoiding PUFAs is that so you don't burn them during stress

Then what do you burn during stress when you do not have enough pufas?
What is the body's second choice?

And really, stress is not bad, only stress that you cannot overcome is bad. When you are victorious, the result is very good and help you to not feel stress. Nobody can avoid stress, as stress is not only about having sugar all the time. You can just avoid being overwhelmed by being resistant, and this you build up progressively, by being successful in case of challenges.