Bonobos Are Altruistic (without Payback And Without Encouragement)

[Prosper]

The studies with LSD in the 1960s (and more recently replicated successfully in maximum security prisons with hardened criminals) show that when people are allowed to escape from the serotonergic mindset they usually change dramatically for the better, and if they revert back to pathology they repeatedly seek to re-enter that non-serotonergic mindset. The medical authorities call this "addiction" but it is really just an organism's recognition that there is a better option - i.e. a constant drive to experience the same blissful mindset again, because it is so deficient (by design) to find in modern life. The "Rat Park" experiment confirmed in other species as well that ability to rapidly change "genetically programmed" pathological behavior (heroin addiction in that case) by changing the environment for the better. So, no need for mass consumption of LSD
Our natural course of development is progress unless interrupted by hypothyroid/serotonergic individuals through brute force, either directly or through engineering a toxic environment for all. We may live in a dog-eat-dog world right now but we know it is unnatural and driven by pathology, which can be reversed.

How many people experience lasting changes from dosing LSD or other psychedelics? I know none. From societal pesrpective, how individuals progress over their lifetimes is nearly irrelevant when every year will see a new generation of immature serotonergic adults causing mayhem all over the prevailing system. The civilization we live in is no more unnatural than any other kind of world we could hypotethically live in. Biologically speaking naturality equals inevitability and anaturality impossibility.

 

[Revo]

Interesting.

 

[haidut]

How many people experience lasting changes from dosing LSD or other psychedelics? I know none. From societal pesrpective, how individuals progress over their lifetimes is nearly irrelevant when every year will see a new generation of immature serotonergic adults causing mayhem all over the prevailing system. The civilization we live in is no more unnatural than any other kind of world we could hypotethically live in. Biologically speaking naturality equals inevitability and anaturality impossibility.

So are you saying we should not try to change course even though we know it is bad? Is the inevitability of life emergence in the Universe a bad thing? What about the the presence of teleology in evolution? It guides, but does not predetermine as we still have free will (which depends on metabolism and serotonin levels of course).
Pretty much all of those that participated in the LSD studies experienced lasting benefit, regardless of whether it was for mental health or "bad character" like criminal behavior. Like I said, this is not an invitation for everybody to start drugging themselves, it just illustrates the point of reversibility of helplessness and serotonergic dominance.
Effects of LSD 100% Positive in New Swiss Study, LSD Still Awesome
"...Amazingly, every single participant reported experiencing major decreases in anxiety levels due to the LSD-assisted psychotherapy. These decreases in anxiety persisted even 12 months after being administered the LSD. Furthermore, no negative effects were reported by any of the participants."

"...LSD and other psychedelics have the potential to wildly alter a person’s life in extraordinary ways. A great example of this is illustrated by the drastic reduction in recidivism when US prisoners are given just one dose of LSD under the guidance of a trained professional. A recent study on recidivism rates among substance abusing community offenders found that the use of hallucinogens during therapy had incredible success in curbing anti-social behavior and treating addiction. This is great news since the United States has more prisoners than any other country in the world. In many states recidivism rates can be as high as 78%."

 

[Prosper]

So are you saying we should not try to change course even though we know it is bad? Is the inevitability of life emergence in the Universe a bad thing? What about the the presence of teleology in evolution? It guides, but does not predetermine as we still have free will (which depends on metabolism and serotonin levels of course).

I don't deal in goods, bads or shoulds. Appealing to both naturality and morality in the same argument is a sure recipe for an intellectual disaster. No, I'm saying our current societal behavior is not any less or more natural than any other behavior we can partake in. Either we exist as units of nature and are therefore 100% bound by naturality, or we exist outside of nature and can not partake in authentic natural behavior. Claiming that this or that behavior or state of mind is unnatural is equal to saying that x is bad because it feels bad. It's an emotion-based opinion, not a rational, or even practical argument in itself.

As for LSD being a potentially helpful tool within the context of well implemented psychotheraphy, I can see that.

 

[morgan#1]

The interesting thing is that we are discussing this, whereas the generic union worker bees are eating their donuts at the truck. They think that it’s normal to have your knees hurting at 40, get foggy, slow, and have no sense of fun, no stamina. They look around at others around them and they say well this sucks but this is life. They remember when they were children, wide-eyed and wanting life to be all that I now believe it is. They think that has passed them by. I love Peat because he’s breaking it open.

Unfortunately the social classes are making the Union workers on the bottom, because most don’t have the luxury of choice. And it seems that we are a select few who have gathered to feel better in this Peat philosophy.

I know people who are ruthless in their mentality, I believe in most part it’s seeing the glass half empty, because in most part it has been for so long. And their struggling. Who the hell wants to eat a carrot in that mindset? Pessimism is so hard.

But I believe that someone can change, but I don’t want to waste my energy on it. I remember a philosophy class I took so long ago, I think it was Peter Singer (??) creates an ocean and so many people are drowning and this metaphorical tiny boat to save people. If I were on the tiny boat, the boat would sink and I would drown, attempting to save all. And common sense rules.

At least I view the choice option. As I said before I’m almost done carring that much about others think about me. I’m human, and I’m vain, but I try and catch it. I know I am good, and there is a choice for everyone, for some it is barely visible.

And I realize it has nothing to do with me, the harshness of rush hour, mean people who I choose not to be around. Ha ha I’m almost a loner. I try and make life wonderful for myself, and I am gracious towards others. Maybe someone will see that, but if they don’t I can’t help them. And some (unfortunately most) absolutely believe their thoughts are their own, unswayable by the things they are eating and the hormones swirling around in them.

 

[encerent]

i wanna be a bonobo.

 

[Revo]

@encerent haha I agree. They got it good. They are about the only animal other than the dolphins and humans that have huge amounts of sex with lots of other bonobos. The only difference is they don't have to put up with all of the crap that us humans have to.

 

[milk_lover]

@encerent haha I agree. They got it good. They are about the only animal other than the dolphins and humans that have huge amounts of sex with lots of other bonobos. The only difference is they don't have to put up with all of the crap that us humans have to.

yeah male bonobos can get it on with any female they see without asking their phone numbers and doing the unnecessary dinner/cinema dates. I don't think there exists feminism group in them that sucks the fun out of everything.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

yeah male bonobos can get it on with any female they see without asking their phone numbers and doing the unnecessary dinner/cinema dates. I don't think there exists feminism group in them that sucks the fun out of everything.

You can do it too, but there are some consequences.

Bonobo females have sex with agitated males to calm them down, which is a big reason they have so much sex. However, IMHO it is a tad problematic to go up to women and give them the choice between a brutal beating and intercourse.

 

[milk_lover]

You can do it too, but there are some consequences.

Bonobo females have sex with agitated males to calm them down, which is a big reason they have so much sex. However, IMHO it is a tad problematic to go up to women and give them the choice between a brutal beating and intercourse.

Ok young men in general are agitated due to stress and lack of sex. Wish human females were as compassionate and generous as the bonobo females..

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Ok young men in general are agitated due to stress and lack of sex. Wish human females were as compassionate and generous as the bonobo females..

Thank God they are not, and thank God we have built a society that generally protects women from that sort of coercion. Women select for men and thus serve life and incentivize the moral and societal development of humanity.

 

[dookie]

So are you saying we should not try to change course even though we know it is bad? Is the inevitability of life emergence in the Universe a bad thing? What about the the presence of teleology in evolution? It guides, but does not predetermine as we still have free will (which depends on metabolism and serotonin levels of course).
Pretty much all of those that participated in the LSD studies experienced lasting benefit, regardless of whether it was for mental health or "bad character" like criminal behavior. Like I said, this is not an invitation for everybody to start drugging themselves, it just illustrates the point of reversibility of helplessness and serotonergic dominance.
Effects of LSD 100% Positive in New Swiss Study, LSD Still Awesome
"...Amazingly, every single participant reported experiencing major decreases in anxiety levels due to the LSD-assisted psychotherapy. These decreases in anxiety persisted even 12 months after being administered the LSD. Furthermore, no negative effects were reported by any of the participants."

"...LSD and other psychedelics have the potential to wildly alter a person’s life in extraordinary ways. A great example of this is illustrated by the drastic reduction in recidivism when US prisoners are given just one dose of LSD under the guidance of a trained professional. A recent study on recidivism rates among substance abusing community offenders found that the use of hallucinogens during therapy had incredible success in curbing anti-social behavior and treating addiction. This is great news since the United States has more prisoners than any other country in the world. In many states recidivism rates can be as high as 78%."

@haidut I have noticed indeed that when serotonin/estrogen are high, it is like you don't have "free will", but are just on auto-pilot zombie/robot behavior. Besides LSD, what can break the pattern? I've used cypro but it simply didn't do it

 

[Revo]

As far as I can tell there has never been a recorded case of a Bonobo killing another one. But among other primates, of course, this is not the case. It is most likely directly related to their free ability to have sex with whoever they want and to live in a cooperative group and that includes both male and female. Because what may not be noticed is that like human primates both male and female bonobos pursue sex with many partners for social and group cohesion reasons as well as for their own personal interest. Amazing there are so many similarities between humans and bonobos.

 

[haidut]

@haidut I have noticed indeed that when serotonin/estrogen are high, it is like you don't have "free will", but are just on auto-pilot zombie/robot behavior. Besides LSD, what can break the pattern? I've used cypro but it simply didn't do it

Anything that significantly lowers brain serotonin should be able to do it. So, BCAA with some tyrosine/phenylalanine/gelatin, aspirin, or androgens (they lower TPH) should be able to provide some of the same effects without the hallucinogenic ones.

 

[haidut]

As far as I can tell there has never been a recorded case of a Bonobo killing another one. But among other primates, of course, this is not the case. It is most likely directly related to their free ability to have sex with whoever they want and to live in a cooperative group and that includes both male and female. Because what may not be noticed is that like human primates both male and female bonobos pursue sex with many partners for social and group cohesion reasons as well as for their own personal interest. Amazing there are so many similarities between humans and bonobos.

Most "primitive" societies in modern Amazonia, and Polynesia are indistinguishable from bonobos. They usually live in tight peaceful communities, with multiple sexual partners, and hierarchical structures only emerge due to a traumatic event of some kind like famine or attack from another tribe.

 

[Revo]

Most "primitive" societies in modern Amazonia, and Polynesia are indistinguishable from bonobos. They usually live in tight peaceful communities, with multiple sexual partners, and hierarchical structures only emerge due to a traumatic event of some kind like famine or attack from another tribe.

Exactly,

These basic hunter-gather tribes that still exist in some remote locations like Amazonia and Polynesia are the closest thing we have to a look at what our ancestors were like before the advent of agriculture. They did not have an ownership mentality they had a cooperative and social lifestyle everything was shared, to not share is considered an insult to the entire tribe or clan. And a big part of that existence centered around lots of sex on both the female and males. We can never go back to that existence but we can understand it so we can understand our most fundamental and basic needs and wants.

 

[Regina]

@haidut I have noticed indeed that when serotonin/estrogen are high, it is like you don't have "free will", but are just on auto-pilot zombie/robot behavior. Besides LSD, what can break the pattern? I've used cypro but it simply didn't do it

What you describe is just about everyone at the aikido school where I train. It's learned helplessness with this bizarre hyper-focus on the dominance hierarchy mirage.

 

[dfspcc20]

Most "primitive" societies in modern Amazonia, and Polynesia are indistinguishable from bonobos. They usually live in tight peaceful communities, with multiple sexual partners, and hierarchical structures only emerge due to a traumatic event of some kind like famine or attack from another tribe.

Exactly,

These basic hunter-gather tribes that still exist in some remote locations like Amazonia and Polynesia are the closest thing we have to a look at what our ancestors were like before the advent of agriculture. They did not have an ownership mentality they had a cooperative and social lifestyle everything was shared, to not share is considered an insult to the entire tribe or clan. And a big part of that existence centered around lots of sex on both the female and males. We can never go back to that existence but we can understand it so we can understand our most fundamental and basic needs and wants.

If you've never read about the Hazda in Tanzania, I found them fascinating. "Primitive", non-authoritarian, generally non-violent, gregarious, generous to strangers. They are serial monogamists, some with the same partner for many years, so I'm not sure they'd fit in that "lots of sex" comment. Diet based on honey, baobab fruit, whole animal/gelatinous meats.

Not that we should model after them, but like the bonobos, they can give us a view of what "human nature" is really like.

I thought Nat Geo had a good piece on them. You might be able to read it here. The paywall is a pain to get around; hence why I tried to use the printable version: National Geographic Magazine - NGM.com

 

[Revo]

Well there are going to be exceptions to every rule. And 1200 people in Tanzania do not nearly compare with humans basic desire to be non-monogamous in the face of incredible social and legal pressures even today. Heck we cant even get Catholic priest to follow their vows because the characteristic of sex with multiple partners is so persistent.

 

[Regina]

Well there are going to be exceptions to every rule. And 1200 people in Tanzania do not nearly compare with humans basic desire to be non-monogamous in the face of incredible social and legal pressures even today. Heck we cant even get Catholic priest to follow their vows because the characteristic of sex with multiple partners is so persistent.

Given the unaccountable environment, there may be some selection bias.