Steene

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WTF? Where are you getting these ideas? Any sources?

Based on what I've read, estrogen is said to oppose water retention and fat deposition in the middle and pushes it toward the lower body. Progesterone pushes it toward breast tissue. Progesterone (+ estrogen) is associated with aethestic/facial attractiveness, a glow (switches bias from estradiol to estriol), a small butt, and fuller breasts.

Fat/water collecting around the middle is usually related to blood sugar, insulin, thyroid/cortisol/stress/estrogen-dominance, low estrogen, etc issues.

If certain stereotypes associated to ethnicities are true (ie, African-American and Mexican-American males liking curvier women and Caucasian males preferring petite Oriental-looking women), then "real men like curves." That is, one study showed Mexican-American males had the highest level of testosterone and DHT (and lowest levels of estradiol) followed by African-Americans and Caucasians. The figure idealized by Orientals is said to be strongly progesterone-biased down to the lighter skin.

Racial variation in sex steroid hormone concentration in black and white men: a meta-analysis

Serum estrogen, but not testosterone, levels differ between black and white men in a nationally representative sample of Americans. - PubMed - NCBI

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13685530903071802?journalCode=itam20

Yes, I strongly agree with you. Progesterone: bigger breasts, relatively small butt but not flat at all, way more attractive face and a thin waist. Definitely NOT thicc thighs and a big butt, these are typically high estrogenic features. Also the fact that people with high progesterone tend to be pale without sunlight, but can get relatively strongly tanned with sun.

Not to forget women like these have a soft girlish voice which can remain even when they get old.
 
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Mauritio

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Interesting . Reminds me of my first girlfriend. She matches that description quite well. She wasnt pale though. But her ability to get tanned was immense . We always used to make jokes about her getting tanned in the shadow just from warmth :D
I suspect now that she had relly high progesterone. Which might have to do with liver function ?!
It was literally impossible to make her really drunk ,after 15 minutes she was always sober no matter what she drank.
If you have more about these characteristics please share. It became kind of like my hobby to diagnose people at first sight :D
 

atlee7757

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All these comments relate to the physical attributes of high estrogen vs high progesterone women, which are quite useful for accessing women from a distance.
Any comments related to behaviour of these two extremes within a male/female relationship?
 

Steene

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All these comments relate to the physical attributes of high estrogen vs high progesterone women, which are quite useful for accessing women from a distance.
Any comments related to behaviour of these two extremes within a male/female relationship?

Thats the point. You can not explain every character trait with hormones, thats why I tried only to use appearances as examples. Only some facts are quite save to say and they are that estrogen promotes aggressiveness in males and females and androgens do the opposite they make you calm and assertive. Just because a woman is progesterone dominant it doesn't mean and wont make her automatically a nice person to be with. I think psychology has better answers to this.
 
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haidut

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WTF? Where are you getting these ideas? Any sources?

Based on what I've read, estrogen is said to oppose water retention and fat deposition in the middle and pushes it toward the lower body. Progesterone pushes it toward breast tissue. Progesterone (+ estrogen) is associated with aethestic/facial attractiveness, a glow (switches bias from estradiol to estriol), a small butt, and fuller breasts.

Fat/water collecting around the middle is usually related to blood sugar, insulin, thyroid/cortisol/stress/estrogen-dominance, low estrogen, etc issues.

If certain stereotypes associated to ethnicities are true (ie, African-American and Mexican-American males liking curvier women and Caucasian males preferring petite Oriental-looking women), then "real men like curves." That is, one study showed Mexican-American males had the highest level of testosterone and DHT (and lowest levels of estradiol) followed by African-Americans and Caucasians. The figure idealized by Orientals is said to be strongly progesterone-biased down to the lighter skin.

Racial variation in sex steroid hormone concentration in black and white men: a meta-analysis

Serum estrogen, but not testosterone, levels differ between black and white men in a nationally representative sample of Americans. - PubMed - NCBI

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13685530903071802?journalCode=itam20

I know there are studies that claim estrogen fights fat accumulation but the large human trials disproved that. In the WHI study, one of the reasons for stopping many of the hormone arms was massive visceral fat gain as a result of estrogen supplementation in menopausal women. Since that is considered an independent risk factor for cancer and CVD, that was often evidence enough for stopping the experiment due to ethical reasons.
On a more biochemical note - estrogen is the primary driver of the enzyme FAS and one of the primary triggers of cortisol release. Cortisol is well-known to play a role in central obesity. Estrogen also suppresses glucose oxidation but increases fat oxidation, which is another mechanism through which it increases central obesity. Progesterone does not really lead to fat gain. Progesterone dominant women are lean, and with youthful hourglass shape. The obesity comes usually after menopause when progesterone and estradiol production from ovaries plummets but estrone (sulfate) is abundant. Look up "estrone obesity".
Estrone in food: a factor influencing the development of obesity? - PubMed - NCBI
Obesity, estrone, and coronary artery disease in postmenopausal women. - PubMed - NCBI
"...RESULTS: Women with a low estrone level were older, thinner, and had less hypertension, diabetes, and lower triglyceride and glucose levels. BMI was positively associated with estrone levels, hypertension, and diabetes and inversely associated with HDL cholesterol. There were 14 deaths, 8 attributed to CAD. The Kaplan-Meier survival curve showed a nonsignificant trend (p=0.074) of greater all cause mortality in women with low estrone levels (<15mL). In this model, adjusted for BMI, age [OR=1.08; p=0.03], C-reactive protein [OR=1.24; p=0.024] and hypertension [OR=6.22; p=0.003] were independent predictors of all cause mortality."
 
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haidut

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baccheion

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I know there are studies that claim estrogen fights fat accumulation but the large human trials disproved that. In the WHI study, one of the reasons for stopping many of the hormone arms was massive visceral fat gain as a result of estrogen supplementation in menopausal women. Since that is considered an independent risk factor for cancer and CVD, that was often evidence enough for stopping the experiment due to ethical reasons.
On a more biochemical note - estrogen is the primary driver of the enzyme FAS and one of the primary triggers of cortisol release. Cortisol is well-known to play a role in central obesity. Estrogen also suppresses glucose oxidation but increases fat oxidation, which is another mechanism through which it increases central obesity. Progesterone does not really lead to fat gain. Progesterone dominant women are lean, and with youthful hourglass shape. The obesity comes usually after menopause when progesterone and estradiol production from ovaries plummets but estrone (sulfate) is abundant. Look up "estrone obesity".
Estrone in food: a factor influencing the development of obesity? - PubMed - NCBI
Obesity, estrone, and coronary artery disease in postmenopausal women. - PubMed - NCBI
"...RESULTS: Women with a low estrone level were older, thinner, and had less hypertension, diabetes, and lower triglyceride and glucose levels. BMI was positively associated with estrone levels, hypertension, and diabetes and inversely associated with HDL cholesterol. There were 14 deaths, 8 attributed to CAD. The Kaplan-Meier survival curve showed a nonsignificant trend (p=0.074) of greater all cause mortality in women with low estrone levels (<15mL). In this model, adjusted for BMI, age [OR=1.08; p=0.03], C-reactive protein [OR=1.24; p=0.024] and hypertension [OR=6.22; p=0.003] were independent predictors of all cause mortality."
Was estrogen balanced with sufficient progesterone in such studies (to prevent estrogen dominance)? I'm aware excess estrogen can cause that form of weight gain, as it slows thyroid function. When progesterone:estrogen is really/excessively high, women are said to be flat all over (possibly with larger breasts). That is, progesterone biases fat away from the middle, butt, thigh, etc.
 

sweetpeat

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Was estrogen balanced with sufficient progesterone in such studies (to prevent estrogen dominance)? I'm aware excess estrogen can cause that form of weight gain, as it slows thyroid function. When progesterone:estrogen is really/excessively high, women are said to be flat all over (possibly with larger breasts). That is, progesterone biases fat away from the middle, butt, thigh, etc.
They were given a progestin (2.5 mg of medroxyprogesterone acetate) rather than bioidentical progesterone. Also, for estrogen they used Premarin which is a conjugated estrogen made from pregnant mare urine and I believe the main ingredient is estrone sulfate.
 

Momado965

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Would you say androsterne, progrsterone, and 6 keto p4 progtesterone are all anti cortisol or only p4 surpasses all the former hormones in its anti cortisol effects?
 
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haidut

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Would you say androsterne, progrsterone, and 6 keto p4 progtesterone are all anti cortisol or only p4 surpasses all the former hormones in its anti cortisol effects?

I don't think androsterone is anti-cortisol but progesterone and 6-keto probably are.
 

Momado965

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I don't think androsterone is anti-cortisol but progesterone and 6-keto probably are.

I forgot to buy keto p4. I have cortinon. Do you think two 5mg doses of progestrrone would be enough and without getting any estrogenic effects from dhea as it is also included in the formula?
 
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haidut

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I forgot to buy keto p4. I have cortinon. Do you think two 5mg doses of progestrrone would be enough and without getting any estrogenic effects from dhea as it is also included in the formula?

It should have an effect and since both progesterone and DHEA are anti-cortisol, the combination should be even more potent.
 

Momado965

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The only steroids that are harsh on the liver either contain too many methyl groups or metabolize into potent estrogens. Many of the injectable AAS are synthetic and satisfy both requirements, but not chemicals like Proviron or natural steroids like pregnenolone, progesterone, androsterone, DHT, androstanedione, etc.

Anavar is methylated dht based steroid. Do you think it has too many methyl groups?
 
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haidut

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Anavar is methylated dht based steroid. Do you think it has too many methyl groups?

It has enough to be liver-toxic. Not as toxic as say R1881 or other AAS but still elevated liver enzymes even in doses as low as 10mg daily. If I had to go with a methylated synthetic derivative, I would prefer something like Drostanolone.
 
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haidut

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Do you think two 5mg doses are alright or would lead to estrogenic symptops?

The 5mg DHEA is low enough to not cause estrogenic symptoms but the presence of progesterone should further limit the risk. That's one reason progesterone is in that product.
 

Momado965

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The 5mg DHEA is low enough to not cause estrogenic symptoms but the presence of progesterone should further limit the risk. That's one reason progesterone is in that product.

With progrsterone combined in cortinon, do you think 5mg dose three times a day wont cause any estrogenic symptoms?
 
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haidut

haidut

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With progrsterone combined in cortinon, do you think 5mg dose three times a day wont cause any estrogenic symptoms?

It should not, but most people probably do not need 3 doses a day. For most, 2 are enough and the risk for estrogenic conversion would be even lower.
 

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