6-keto P4 - Liquid 6-ketoprogesterone For Lab/R&D

[tap1on]

I would not say "rather than" but either or, depending on what works best for the person. DHEA could be problematic for people with high estrogen so in that case combining with androsterone could be better.

Appreciate your feedback, thanks!

 

[Texon]

Drink coffee, do coffee enemas. It will help.

Vitamin b6 p5p helps with morning sickness too maybe due to helping with gb function?

 

[Texon]

Second that. At first I didn’t know it was the 6-Keto, and thought it was brain fog from eating something “suspect.” Also, I noticed if I go over 10 drops I don’t feel like myself...very unmotivated, and flat emotionally.

@haidut when I see mixed results like this vs someone who can take 10 drops 3x per day without a problem makes me suspect genetic/cyp 450 differences/influences which can be very aggravating for those dealing with them.

 

[haidut]

@haidut when I see mixed results like this vs someone who can take 10 drops 3x per day without a problem makes me suspect genetic/cyp 450 differences/influences which can be very aggravating for those dealing with them.

Well, 6-keto is still a progestin and sedating in higher doses even though less so than progesterone. So, at higher doses, especially if a person's system is slow at metabolizing it, it is quite expected to have this effect.

 

[rebaseonu]

The Mega Mass product recommends 2 x 50mg doses daily.
Thats a large dose of 6-Keto-Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione per day for 30 days as the label says.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think you could get that amount of 6-keto from Haiduts product.
I know the other product has extra crap in it.
I want is some thoughts on ingesting 200mg per day of 6-keto.
Pros and cons ya know.
Remember I'm looking at 6-keto for it's muscle building potentials.
I'm willing to try it and report back.

Still alive? .. Anything to report ??

 

[stevrd]

Thank you @haidut for explaining the difference between 6-keto hormones. I have always had this idea that all hormones cause shutdown (except DHEA and pregnenolone), now I see that there may be no HPTA shutdown from 6-keto steroids, or at least not in any appreciable amount.

For those that are interested in this, check out this article explaining 6 keto progesterone, 6 ketoandrosterone, and others: Comparing The 6-Keto Anabolics Like Laxogenin - Mind And Muscle

It appears that in addition to the anti-GR benefits described in this thread, the 6-keto steroids appear to have additional modes of muscle-building properties as shown below.

An excerpt from the article:
"If one looks at the structure of these steroids we can deduce their benefits. It appears that all 6-Keto anabolics work by increasing both protein synthesis (suggested via messenger RNA) and myotubule increases (the creation of new muscle cells) and the only thing that separates them is their ability to be metabolically cleared in the body.

In order of excretion (rendering the steroids inactive) would come at the expense of their hydroxyl groups and skeleton modifications. Hydroxyl groups are ripe pickings for sulfotransferase, which makes sulfated forms of these steroids. Sulfated steroids are what is commonly excreted in the urine as the body processes steroids, so the more resistant the steroid to sulfation the greater the activity.

Based on structure from worst to best here is the list of metabolic resistance (more activity)

Turkesterone – this appears to have more metabolic activity than standard ecdysterone, but also shares the same metabolic fate of this steroid since it contains hydroxyls at both the 2 and 3 positions. The 11-Hydroxyl group seems to have no appreciable effect but the massive amount of C-17 crown hydroxyl groups make this a good candidate for glucoronidation and excretion.

Beta-Ecdysterone – this would be the “second weakest” 6-keto anabolic because it has the most hydroxyl groups for the body to attack. Specifically the 2 and 3 position hydroxl groups allow for immediate sulfation and excretion and it also shares a lot of crown hydroxy groups like turkesterone. Thus, both of these likely suffer from poor bioavialability due to metabolic clearance.

5a-Hydroxy-Laxogenin – this should be more metabolically active than it’s other ecdysterone counterparts because it lacks hydoxyl groups at the bottom of the molecule (C17 side chains) yet still has the 3b-hydroxyl group which can easily be sulfated. Seems like that the anecdotal data on this steroid is backed up by its structure which is more resistant to metabolic clearing than the other two.

6-Keto-Progesterone – this steroid is the most metabolically active since it has no hydroxyl groups at the C17 side chain and also has a 3-keto group, which must be converted to a hydroxy before it can be sulfated."

There are companies that are interested in 6 keto progesterone. Check this one out: 17a-Andro

There's 20mg of 6 keto progesterone per serving. Not sure what the main ingredient is at 37mg per serving. It might not be a good hormone.

 

[RobertJM]

Is there a mechanism by which this supplement might cause increased weight of a person? Every time I take this I get heavier. But it doesn’t appear to be body fat. Just wondering if the body builders might have noticed such an effect from their research with it.

 

[brix]

Is there a mechanism by which this supplement might cause increased weight of a person? Every time I take this I get heavier. But it doesn’t appear to be body fat. Just wondering if the body builders might have noticed such an effect from their research with it.

How much have you gained? What dosage and how long were you taking it?

Increased cortisol causes weight loss in lower extremities so maybe lowering it is allowing you to build muscle easily.

 

[haidut]

Is there a mechanism by which this supplement might cause increased weight of a person? Every time I take this I get heavier. But it doesn’t appear to be body fat. Just wondering if the body builders might have noticed such an effect from their research with it.

If it is accompanied by increased hunger then it is probably due to cortisol-lowering effect. Anti-estrogenic effects also lead to appetite increase. Anything blocking cortisol well would over time lead to decreased catabolism of muscle mass. Progesterone would be quite anabolic if it was not for its potent thermogenic effects, and 6-keto seems to retain the anti-catabolic effects of progesterone without the increased thermogenesis. Progesterone does seem to increase appetite too.

 

[Owen B]

I noticed that a few people on the thread talked about gall bladder problems with progesterone. That's a new one on me.

I've been taking progesterone for over 2 yrs. Started with Progest-e and went over to Progestene. I haven't noticed anything but I'm concerned I'm missing something.

What are the signs and indications of gall bladder problems? Any lab numbers to check?

 

[haidut]

I noticed that a few people on the thread talked about gall bladder problems with progesterone. That's a new one on me.

I've been taking progesterone for over 2 yrs. Started with Progest-e and went over to Progestene. I haven't noticed anything but I'm concerned I'm missing something.

What are the signs and indications of gall bladder problems? Any lab numbers to check?

Can you ask in a separate thread please? This is a thread for 6-keto P4, which was shown to have no progestogenic effects so I doubt it the concern applied to it.

 

[dand]

@haidut so 6-keto-p4 , like progesterone and preg/dhea, would work as the aromatizable steroid with something like dht/11-keto-dht 0r andosterone, correct?

 

[dand]

Or I gu

@haidut so 6-keto-p4 , like progesterone and preg/dhea, would work as the aromatizable steroid with something like dht/11-keto-dht 0r andosterone, correct?

I guess they're not really considered aromatizable with the exception of dhea. I think I had a really good effect from 11-keto dht and progesterone today. I remember you saying something best about 11-keto and andosterone as androgens needing to be combined with preg or progesterone. I think that is what I was referring to. Seems like 6-keto P4 would work as a substitute for prep or progesterone in this context, right?

 

[Robert Williams]

Should my rat cycle this ? Or can it be given every day long term ? Also what is the recommend Dose for a average size rat ? Have read through the forum but would like to hear what people think

 

[sladerunner69]

I think a lot of the hypertrophy seen in competitive bodybuilders is due to estrogenic AAS, and thus water retention. In fact, AFAIK estrogen is considered integral in bodybuilding circles for muscle growth and is only inhibited in the lean/cutting cycle. The fact that anti-estrogenic / anti-cortisol chemicals without any other known effects like RU486 are just as anabolic as the AAS (ab)used by the bodybuilders was conveniently ignored for decades. However, more recent studies showing heart and liver issues in AAS users showing up decades after ending use of these chemicals is making people reconsider what they (ab)use. Now everybody is jumping on "atypical" chemicals like RU486, and some of gbol's posts mentioned that.
Anyways, the main point is that inhibiting cortisol and estrogen is probably the main route to both quality muscle growth and maintaining overall systemic health, including immune system. AAS suppress the immune system almost as well as cortisol, and the most estrogenic AAS are the worst in this respect. Inhibiting estrogen is also immunity-boosting, just like inhibiting cortisol is.
Reducing Estrogen Synthesis Regenerates Thymus Destroyed By Aging

Btw, I would not say Arnold did well. Two open heart surgeries so far, who knows how many bypass procedures, as well as a few "flu" episodes that almost killed him. Have not checked into how Zane is doing, but I doubt it is any better.

Arnold claims the reason he needed heart surgery was purely genetic. Something about a condition where one of the valves is inefficient. When says when he was younger that his doctors said should never play sports or do activities that involved much running, so he lifted weights instead. That's his story anyways.

Most bodybuilders don't seem to do well into old age, with the notable exception of the natural ones, such as jack lalane.

 

[Robert Williams]

Any effect on the liver with this substance anyone ?

 

[haidut]

@haidut so 6-keto-p4 , like progesterone and preg/dhea, would work as the aromatizable steroid with something like dht/11-keto-dht 0r andosterone, correct?

Yes, that is my suspicion.

 

[ddjd]

I have to say 6 Keto P4 has become my go to on nights when I just can't get off to sleep. I can sometimes spend hours waiting to fall asleep, I think I have a problem with high Glutamate, low GABA.

8 drops of 6 Keto P4 and I'm out within ten minutes!

Should I be worried at all about using it long term?

 

[haidut]

I have to say 6 Keto P4 has become my go to on nights when I just can't get off to sleep. I can sometimes spend hours waiting to fall asleep, I think I have a problem with high Glutamate, low GABA.

8 drops of 6 Keto P4 and I'm out within ten minutes!

Should I be worried at all about using it long term?

I think it is more of a cortisol issue. Elevated evening cortisol could cause sleep issues and I think 6-keto works mostly as a cortisol blocker. It does not have much GABA activity. So, it may be a good idea to have both AM and PM cortisol tested.

 

[Spartan300]

What course of action would a gp likely take if cortisol was shown to be elevated?

I know my morning cortisol is above reference range but my gp ignored it. I suspect my evening cortisol as I have similar sleep issues