Wagner83

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There are a lot of papers regarding the vitamins I mentioned before, a lot it in this forum. A lot of practitioners used megavitamin-therapy back then to treat a lot of conditions when they didn't even know that K2 existed. Abraham Hoffer's, Linus Pauling, etc.

Regarding the 11-keto DHT, I started using it for a paper posted by Haidut where they gave DHT and b1 to treat liver abnormalities with great success. I used to use it sporadically, but lately I have been using it daily at 3 drops per day. I have noticed that b1, B2 and b7 have strongly potentiated it's effect. Not a surprise since FAD is necessary to almost every body process.

An interesting post about potentiating the effects of dht/11ketodht @haidut.
 
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haidut

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An interesting post about potentiating the effects of dht/11ketodht @haidut.

Yep, and I would add B3 because NAD is just as important as FAD. In fact, in alcoholic rats with impaired steroidogenesis adding pregnenolone did not restore it but adding pregnenolone + niacinamide did. So, B1, B2, and B3 are probably pretty important to optimize steroid synthesis and downstream effects.
 
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Jsaute21

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I read a study where they gave DHT to old people and they improved in every blood parameter and kept the benefits when they stopped taking it. Exogenous hormones from our moms are really important and it's sad but the health of our moms could not be the best when we where growing inside them...so maybe exogenous hormones are the answer for hard-cases. I even read one paper saying that the gender of the child is determined by the amount of DHT of the mom.

Interesting hypothesis here, confused how it could describe a pair of twins that are a boy & a girl.
 

Jsaute21

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Well, it appears that I might have tanked my Estrogen.

Here's what I was taking per day:

11-Keto DHT = 5mg (am) and 5mg (pm) - loading dose for the first week followed by 5mg per day
Pansterone = 5mg (single dose)
Tyromix = 3 drops (1 drop 3 times per day)
Tocovit = 400iu (single dose)
Estroban = single dose
Vitamin A = 100,000iu
Vitamin K - 15-45mg
Caffeine = 400mg twice a day (800mg total)
Aspirin = 1-2G
Niacinamide = 1500mg (split throughout the day)
Thiamine = 1500mg (split throughout the day)

*Note that I used all of the above at different times in the past with no negative responses, so might just have been the combo.

Symptoms: (First few days I felt fantastic. Tons of energy + great libido + sings of increased T (less belly fat + better flaccid hang) crystal-clear vision + better skin tone - thicker facial hair)


Then after a few days:

-first my digestion ground to a complete halt with a meal of beef liver + ice cream (literally to a point where I almost had to vomit to clear out my stomach after a couple of hours)
-libido tanked
-erections gone (not even morning wood as normal) and penis just numb
-tired + irritable (sleeping 10+hrs per day)

After reading about the Low-E debate on other threads, not sure how to view this. Stopped all sups, and currently testing large dose aspirin for a couple of days to see if it's possibly inflammation from low Cortisol.

Still seems like I'm missing something here, and would greatly appreciate any ideas or advice. @haidut or anyone else - Thanks!:D

One final note: not sure how to spot the point where Estrogen falls too low, as low libido is the only major noticeable symptom.o_O

Interesting. First off, my libido tanks and i feel low estrogen symptoms when taking too many supplements at once. Those supplements you are taking are all phenomenal but that is just simply too many at once. Almost counter productive for your liver to have to process all of those "liver healing" substances at once.

One area that confuses me a little bit is where caffeine falls in the recovery process. Some feel it is an essential tool to improving liver health & healing, while others feel as if you must wait until you are in sufficient health to consume. I know that i personally have to be properly fueled to not have an adrenaline/edgy response to caffeine. I don't get anxiety or jitters or anything just can be a little more quick tempered than my usual mild mannered self.
 

theLaw

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Interesting. First off, my libido tanks and i feel low estrogen symptoms when taking too many supplements at once. Those supplements you are taking are all phenomenal but that is just simply too many at once. Almost counter productive for your liver to have to process all of those "liver healing" substances at once.

One area that confuses me a little bit is where caffeine falls in the recovery process. Some feel it is an essential tool to improving liver health & healing, while others feel as if you must wait until you are in sufficient health to consume. I know that i personally have to be properly fueled to not have an adrenaline/edgy response to caffeine. I don't get anxiety or jitters or anything just can be a little more quick tempered than my usual mild mannered self.

I think that caffeine doses need to be increased slowly (Haidut's suggestion of 200mg per week seems reasonable) and taken with enough food to avoid any stress response.

However, I also think that caffeine intake needs to be paired with other protocols to improve digestion, clean the liver, and purge stored pufa from tissues. Caffeine in isolation will only take you so far.

Reading through the Ray Peat Email Exchange Wiki really helped me to put different protocols into context.

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

Under the Liver heading:
Eliminating all PUFA would be the most important thing, and having lots of orange juice, other sugars including honey, and milk and gelatin. Cytomel, aspirin, acetazolamide, and progesterone all protect the liver and help to slow cancer growth. Some people use extremely large amounts of aspirin, which require supplements of vitamin K, to prevent bleeding. Fibrous foods such as bamboo shoots and laxatives such as cascara help to reduce the absorption of bowel toxins that promote cancer and burden the liver.

Under Sugar:
I think a total for sugar up to ten ounces can be o.k., depending on your metabolic rate and needs. Budd and Piorry used up to 12 ounces per day therapeutically.

10 ounces = 24T of sugar. More than enough to handle high amounts of caffeine if the dose is increased slowly.

I think Haidut's Caff+K2 suggestion is a way to fast track liver health, but it can also go south if you don't have enough nutrition to support it, which is why many members have issues with it.

Keep in mind that there are still many members here who haven't even stabilized their blood sugar, even after years on the forum, so for them caffeine is probably a nightmare.:eek:
 

Lucenzo01

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I think that caffeine doses need to be increased slowly (Haidut's suggestion of 200mg per week seems reasonable) and taken with enough food to avoid any stress response.

However, I also think that caffeine intake needs to be paired with other protocols to improve digestion, clean the liver, and purge stored pufa from tissues. Caffeine in isolation will only take you so far.

Reading through the Ray Peat Email Exchange Wiki really helped me to put different protocols into context.

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

Under the Liver heading:


Under Sugar:


10 ounces = 24T of sugar. More than enough to handle high amounts of caffeine if the dose is increased slowly.

I think Haidut's Caff+K2 suggestion is a way to fast track liver health, but it can also go south if you don't have enough nutrition to support it, which is why many members have issues with it.

Keep in mind that there are still many members here who haven't even stabilized their blood sugar, even after years on the forum, so for them caffeine is probably a nightmare.:eek:

I hace always reacted poorly to K2. I think we should focus on supplements with antipathogen activity more than trying to increases androgens per se. Killing those bastards would make the body free.

One thing that has not been spoken is the sulfur of the supplements. Taurine, thiamine and lot.more contain sulfur and if you have Candida or some bacteria they will feed from it and will make you feel like ***t. Cutting sulfur-containing supplements have been a great tool to recover. Just see how the studies done with thiamine are done intravenously. I suspect this the reason why some people react so bad to oral supplementation.
 

theLaw

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I hace always reacted poorly to K2. I think we should focus on supplements with antipathogen activity more than trying to increases androgens per se. Killing those bastards would make the body free.

One thing that has not been spoken is the sulfur of the supplements. Taurine, thiamine and lot.more contain sulfur and if you have Candida or some bacteria they will feed from it and will make you feel like ***t. Cutting sulfur-containing supplements have been a great tool to recover. Just see how the studies done with thiamine are done intravenously. I suspect this the reason why some people react so bad to oral supplementation.

If that is your preferential approach, then Meth Blue, K2, Activated Charcoal, Carrot Salad, and Antibiotics would be effective. Keeping a sterile gut would be the main goal.

AC from RPEE:

It does destroy some vitamins by oxidation, that's why he [V.V. Frolkis] used it only intermittently. Usually fibers, such as carrots or bamboo shoots, are preferable for reducing toxin absorption.

Oxidal - Liquid Dietary Supplement For Oxidation Support

Coconut Oil + Vinegar = Potent Antibiotic

Personally never had any issues with K2 from Thorne or Idealabs, so I can't speak to that, but I would suspect liver issues.

I always purchase my powdered sups from Bulk Sups which claim to be pure, and have never had an issue. Learned this the hard way after having a reaction to several Taurine sups.
 

Jsaute21

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I think that caffeine doses need to be increased slowly (Haidut's suggestion of 200mg per week seems reasonable) and taken with enough food to avoid any stress response.

However, I also think that caffeine intake needs to be paired with other protocols to improve digestion, clean the liver, and purge stored pufa from tissues. Caffeine in isolation will only take you so far.

Reading through the Ray Peat Email Exchange Wiki really helped me to put different protocols into context.

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

Under the Liver heading:


Under Sugar:


10 ounces = 24T of sugar. More than enough to handle high amounts of caffeine if the dose is increased slowly.

I think Haidut's Caff+K2 suggestion is a way to fast track liver health, but it can also go south if you don't have enough nutrition to support it, which is why many members have issues with it.

Keep in mind that there are still many members here who haven't even stabilized their blood sugar, even after years on the forum, so for them caffeine is probably a nightmare.:eek:

Yeah, good points here. I think i am someone who's biggest mistake has been under eating in the past. I am 6'1 & muscular and need a lot of calories. If i under eat in the mornings, it gets me off to a bad start. I consume a lot of sugar. Usually 1-2 Cups of OJ, 2-3 Mexican Cokes, Half of a healthy dark chocolate bar, 2-3 cups of milk, 1-2 servings of ice cream & probably 5 TBSP total of sugar in my coffee. I am usually satiated for longer periods when i consume a healthy starch like a potato in a meal but it is such a pain to prepare.
 

theLaw

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Yeah, good points here. I think i am someone who's biggest mistake has been under eating in the past. I am 6'1 & muscular and need a lot of calories. If i under eat in the mornings, it gets me off to a bad start. I consume a lot of sugar. Usually 1-2 Cups of OJ, 2-3 Mexican Cokes, Half of a healthy dark chocolate bar, 2-3 cups of milk, 1-2 servings of ice cream & probably 5 TBSP total of sugar in my coffee. I am usually satiated for longer periods when i consume a healthy starch like a potato in a meal but it is such a pain to prepare.

Wonder how you would react to a few of these spaced throughout the day, or even better taken with meals. You could probably pack a ton of calories into each one of these, and even pop a few pieces of frozen liver with each one to provide some extra vitamins and minerals to balance out the pure sugar content. Personally I think tastes like ****, but I did have success with blending small amounts (.5 ounces) into coffee and chocolate shakes, or just freezing small slices to take like a capsule.

 
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haidut

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Would it be ok for rat to take 11-Keto orally?

I have used it orally and it seems to work but is less potent that way (in my experience).
 

ddjd

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Any plans for this to come out as a non dmso version? Meaning if we wanted to try diamant with it, using the non dmso version should still be very effective
You can't take dmso with diamant?
 
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@Joeyd

I can't find it on haidut's site, I assumed it was gone.

It's kinda difficult to sell anything androgenic if it has the steroid structure.
 

Broken man

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I think that caffeine doses need to be increased slowly (Haidut's suggestion of 200mg per week seems reasonable) and taken with enough food to avoid any stress response.

However, I also think that caffeine intake needs to be paired with other protocols to improve digestion, clean the liver, and purge stored pufa from tissues. Caffeine in isolation will only take you so far.

Reading through the Ray Peat Email Exchange Wiki really helped me to put different protocols into context.

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

Under the Liver heading:


Under Sugar:


10 ounces = 24T of sugar. More than enough to handle high amounts of caffeine if the dose is increased slowly.

I think Haidut's Caff+K2 suggestion is a way to fast track liver health, but it can also go south if you don't have enough nutrition to support it, which is why many members have issues with it.

Keep in mind that there are still many members here who haven't even stabilized their blood sugar, even after years on the forum, so for them caffeine is probably a nightmare.:eek:
Thats true. I can say that I wasnt able tolerate caffeine until I minimized starch consumption, added thiamine, taurine, cyproheptadine and magnesium. A lot of magnesium.
 

ddjd

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shorter sleep is good.

It's a good sign. Just get up and go about your day. Take a nap if you want.

Eventually things will stabilize but this is a GOOD thing.
How is this necessarily a good thing. could be a sign of increased stress hormones. i think you need a lot of fuel when taking keto dht so maybe this person is waking up due to high stress levels?
 

ddjd

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Is it ok for a rat to take 11keto DHT orally? just 1-2 drops a day
 

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