L-lysine - Serotonin Antagonist

[Peata]

If anyone takes l-lysine, please report back on how you're doing. Especially if you've taken cyproheptadine too, and can compare how the two feel the same or different. Thanks.

 

[haidut]

If anyone takes l-lysine, please report back on how you're doing. Especially if you've taken cyproheptadine too, and can compare how the two feel the same or different. Thanks.

I can report that after a dose of 1g-3g lysine on an empty stomach I can eat habanero peppers, which would normally destroy my gut health for a week. The studies reported dose-dependent effects on blocking serotonin, with maximum observed at a human dose of 12g-15g. However, the high dose was used to block effects of extra serotonin administered as injection combined with high stress. For most cases, a much lower dose would probably be enough but the sweet spot would likely be individual so has to be determined experimentally.

 

[cantstoppeating]

If anyone takes l-lysine, please report back on how you're doing. Especially if you've taken cyproheptadine too, and can compare how the two feel the same or different. Thanks.

I can report that after a dose of 1g-3g lysine on an empty stomach I can eat habanero peppers, which would normally destroy my gut health for a week. The studies reported dose-dependent effects on blocking serotonin, with maximum observed at a human dose of 12g-15g. However, the high dose was used to block effects of extra serotonin administered as injection combined with high stress. For most cases, a much lower dose would probably be enough but the sweet spot would likely be individual so has to be determined experimentally.

lysine looks like an excellent supplement to take when traveling. Now I know what to take with me on my east-asia tour so I can handle the street food. Perfect.

 

[Peata]

If anyone takes l-lysine, please report back on how you're doing. Especially if you've taken cyproheptadine too, and can compare how the two feel the same or different. Thanks.

I can report that after a dose of 1g-3g lysine on an empty stomach I can eat habanero peppers, which would normally destroy my gut health for a week. The studies reported dose-dependent effects on blocking serotonin, with maximum observed at a human dose of 12g-15g. However, the high dose was used to block effects of extra serotonin administered as injection combined with high stress. For most cases, a much lower dose would probably be enough but the sweet spot would likely be individual so has to be determined experimentally.

Thanks. And do you have any thoughts on whether it would be harmful to take both l-lysine and cyproheptadine on the same day - such as l-lysine earlier in day and cypro at night on a daily basis?

I just wonder because maybe one could get benefits of both that way without weight gain from higher doses of cypro.

 

[haidut]

If anyone takes l-lysine, please report back on how you're doing. Especially if you've taken cyproheptadine too, and can compare how the two feel the same or different. Thanks.

I can report that after a dose of 1g-3g lysine on an empty stomach I can eat habanero peppers, which would normally destroy my gut health for a week. The studies reported dose-dependent effects on blocking serotonin, with maximum observed at a human dose of 12g-15g. However, the high dose was used to block effects of extra serotonin administered as injection combined with high stress. For most cases, a much lower dose would probably be enough but the sweet spot would likely be individual so has to be determined experimentally.

Thanks. And do you have any thoughts on whether it would be harmful to take both l-lysine and cyproheptadine on the same day - such as l-lysine earlier in day and cypro at night on a daily basis?

I just wonder because maybe one could get benefits of both that way without weight gain from higher doses of cypro.

I can't say much about safety, but people are consuming lysine as protein every day and those taking cypro have not yet reported bad interactions.
Btw, high dose cypro does not make you gain weight. It just increases appetite, which in SOME people results in gaining weight. If anything, since cyproheptadine is considered a peripheral serotonin antagonist as well, it should help weight loss through improved metabolism. Anything that blocks serotonin synthesis or its effects on tissues helps restore metabolism. Serotonin and estrogen are the cardinal metabolic poisons, and are of course driven by PUFA and stress. We had a thread on blocking peripheral serotonin as a viable methods of inducing weight loss.
Serotonin's evolutionary function is increasing metabolic efficiency in times of stress / famine. Peat's central theme is decreasing metabolic efficiency by, among other things, uncoupling the mitochondria. This is also the theory behind serotonin causing depression, as per another study I posted recently. Serotonin redirects limited energetic resources to vital functions like cardiac function and induces a state of "rumination" as an adaptive mechanism of coming up with a solution to a perceived problem. A hallmark of depression is deeply analytical thought, and inability to let go of memories of past events. In depression, the brain tries to collect as much information as possible (hence remembering the past in such vivid detail) in order to increase the statistical validity/significance of any generalizations the over-rumination is bound to come up with.
Anyways, I don't see why a person can't take lysine and cyproheptadine together but I'd still defer to a doctor / pharmacists for exact details on safety. For people living in the USA you can walk into any pharmacy like CVS, RiteAid, Walgreens, etc and ask the pharmacists that question. They are usually pretty good in terms of their knowledge of interactions.

 

[Peata]

I can't say much about safety, but people are consuming lysine as protein every day and those taking cypro have not yet reported bad interactions.
Btw, high dose cypro does not make you gain weight. It just increases appetite, which in SOME people results in gaining weight. If anything, since cyproheptadine is considered a peripheral serotonin antagonist as well, it should help weight loss through improved metabolism. Anything that blocks serotonin synthesis or its effects on tissues helps restore metabolism. Serotonin and estrogen are the cardinal metabolic poisons, and are of course driven by PUFA and stress. We had a thread on blocking peripheral serotonin as a viable methods of inducing weight loss.
Serotonin's evolutionary function is increasing metabolic efficiency in times of stress / famine. Peat's central theme is decreasing metabolic efficiency by, among other things, uncoupling the mitochondria. This is also the theory behind serotonin causing depression, as per another study I posted recently. Serotonin redirects limited energetic resources to vital functions like cardiac function and induces a state of "rumination" as an adaptive mechanism of coming up with a solution to a perceived problem. A hallmark of depression is deeply analytical thought, and inability to let go of memories of past events. In depression, the brain tries to collect as much information as possible (hence remembering the past in such vivid detail) in order to increase the statistical validity/significance of any generalizations the over-rumination is bound to come up with.
Anyways, I don't see why a person can't take lysine and cyproheptadine together but I'd still defer to a doctor / pharmacists for exact details on safety. For people living in the USA you can walk into any pharmacy like CVS, RiteAid, Walgreens, etc and ask the pharmacists that question. They are usually pretty good in terms of their knowledge of interactions.

Thanks again. Good info. I did have increased appetite on higher doses of Cypro and stopped taking it in the fall, but maybe I should have just lowered dose again and stuck it out to see if the appetite reduced.

I will try to talk to a pharmacist soon and see what they say about taking both.

So, one last question. Based on some recent posts on supplements, would you say it would pretty much cover all the Peat bases to take 1) cyproheptadine (or l-lysine) and 2) biotin? A person would then be effecting directly or indirectly - serotonin, estrogen, histamine, prolactin, dopamine, tryptophan, nitric oxide, ammonia, lactate, ATP, CO2, insulin sensitivity/glucose tolerance, glutamate, fatty acid synthesis.

Besides the other peaty measures like avoiding pufa, getting adequate protein, sunlight, calcium in diet, etc. etc, and getting other B vits to stay balanced, it seems like those two supplements could really help fill in. But say if I'm wrong.

Adding; i don't want to imply that RP says to take them or that people should. I'm curious and wanting to pare down some supplements.

 

[haidut]

I can't say much about safety, but people are consuming lysine as protein every day and those taking cypro have not yet reported bad interactions.
Btw, high dose cypro does not make you gain weight. It just increases appetite, which in SOME people results in gaining weight. If anything, since cyproheptadine is considered a peripheral serotonin antagonist as well, it should help weight loss through improved metabolism. Anything that blocks serotonin synthesis or its effects on tissues helps restore metabolism. Serotonin and estrogen are the cardinal metabolic poisons, and are of course driven by PUFA and stress. We had a thread on blocking peripheral serotonin as a viable methods of inducing weight loss.
Serotonin's evolutionary function is increasing metabolic efficiency in times of stress / famine. Peat's central theme is decreasing metabolic efficiency by, among other things, uncoupling the mitochondria. This is also the theory behind serotonin causing depression, as per another study I posted recently. Serotonin redirects limited energetic resources to vital functions like cardiac function and induces a state of "rumination" as an adaptive mechanism of coming up with a solution to a perceived problem. A hallmark of depression is deeply analytical thought, and inability to let go of memories of past events. In depression, the brain tries to collect as much information as possible (hence remembering the past in such vivid detail) in order to increase the statistical validity/significance of any generalizations the over-rumination is bound to come up with.
Anyways, I don't see why a person can't take lysine and cyproheptadine together but I'd still defer to a doctor / pharmacists for exact details on safety. For people living in the USA you can walk into any pharmacy like CVS, RiteAid, Walgreens, etc and ask the pharmacists that question. They are usually pretty good in terms of their knowledge of interactions.

Thanks again. Good info. I did have increased appetite on higher doses of Cypro and stopped taking it in the fall, but maybe I should have just lowered dose again and stuck it out to see if the appetite reduced.

I will try to talk to a pharmacist soon and see what they say about taking both.

So, one last question. Based on some recent posts on supplements, would you say it would pretty much cover all the Peat bases to take 1) cyproheptadine (or l-lysine) and 2) biotin? A person would then be effecting directly or indirectly - serotonin, estrogen, histamine, prolactin, dompamine, tryptophan, nitric oxide, ammonia, lactate, ATP, CO2, insulin sensitivity/glucose tolerance, glutamate, fatty acid synthesis.

Besides the other peaty measures like avoiding pufa, getting adequate protein, sunlight, calcium in diet, etc. etc, and getting other B vits to stay balanced, it seems like those two supplements could really help fill in. But say if I'm wrong.

For a general metabolic boost and protection against many degenerative diseases which I cannot list here for obvious (hint: legal) reasons, a good approach may be to take thiamine, riboflavin, niacinamide, pyridoxine, and biotin. I would add to that caffeine for its overall metabolic effects and ability to extend maximum lifespan by 50%+, the 4 fat-soluble vitamins, and aspirin as needed (maybe take 2-3 times a week like Peat does). Pretty much all of these have been covered by Peat in his articles but now we have specific studies listing specific dosages for each substance and its expected effects on many conditions.
The above substances alone and in combination will have effects on serotonin, estrogen, dopamine, histamine, ammonia, and prostaglandins. There are other things one can add as needed but I think these are pretty solid in terms of evidence.

 

[janus]

(first-time poster)

As a fellow recent lysine experimenter, this thread piqued my interest. Lysine's effects on nitric oxide and serotonin would (as we might expect) appear to relate to CO2, calcium, copper, other amino acids, etc. Some relevant quotes:

"Our results suggest that L-lysine can both enhance intestinal Ca absorption and improve the renal conservation of the absorbed Ca."

"Copper is essential in the normal maturation of collagen, particularly in steps important to the formation of lysine-derived cross-links. A decrease in the formation of cross-linking amino acids is thought to account in part for the increased fragility of bone from copper-deficient animals.The underlying biochemical lesion may be a reduction in lysyl oxidase activity."

Peat:

"If we think of the proteins known as the GABA and glycine receptors as having some regions in which the basic amine of lysine associates with the acidic group of aspartic or glutamic acid, then the action of glycine, or other amino acids would be to introduce additional lipophilic carbon atoms into those regions (with the amino acids' polar ends pairing with their opposites on the protein), where the cardinal adsorbents exert their influence."

"Wherever there is lysine or other free amino group (practically every protein and peptide), carbon dioxide can be expected to react with it to some degree, which will depend on other things in the environment. Lysine also reacts with sugars, so there is a competition between CO2 and glucose. In aging and diabetes, many proteins are altered by the inappropriate binding to sugars...Sugars replace carbon dioxide and acetate on lysines."

 

[kineticz]

I can definitely relate to 'rumination' before I started antagonising serotonin.

 

[Bluebell]

Serotonin redirects limited energetic resources to vital functions like cardiac function and induces a state of "rumination" as an adaptive mechanism of coming up with a solution to a perceived problem. A hallmark of depression is deeply analytical thought, and inability to let go of memories of past events. In depression, the brain tries to collect as much information as possible (hence remembering the past in such vivid detail) in order to increase the statistical validity/significance of any generalizations the over-rumination is bound to come up with.

Haidut, that's a fascinating way of putting it and very true: depression as rumination, too much analytical thought. Could I ask for any books or references where I can read more about that?

To achieve the opposite of this depressive state, should people go direct and reduce serotonin? Or concentrate on increasing dopamine instead, or ...?

 

[haidut]

Serotonin redirects limited energetic resources to vital functions like cardiac function and induces a state of "rumination" as an adaptive mechanism of coming up with a solution to a perceived problem. A hallmark of depression is deeply analytical thought, and inability to let go of memories of past events. In depression, the brain tries to collect as much information as possible (hence remembering the past in such vivid detail) in order to increase the statistical validity/significance of any generalizations the over-rumination is bound to come up with.

Haidut, that's a fascinating way of putting it and very true: depression as rumination, too much analytical thought. Could I ask for any books or references where I can read more about that?

To achieve the opposite of this depressive state, should people go direct and reduce serotonin? Or concentrate on increasing dopamine instead, or ...?

The study I posted recently on how science finally realized that the serotonin-depression connection is backwards has some information on that topic. They also list some references as well. But if you go to PubMed and search for "depression rumination" you will get many studies. Here is one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25661397

"...BACKGROUND: Rumination is one of the hallmark characteristics of both anxiety disorders and depression, and has been linked to deficient executive functioning, particularly working memory (WM). Previous findings show that working memory capacity can be increased through training."

I'd say either approach is probably beneficial - i.e. reducing serotonin or increase dopamine. They tend to be inversely correlated and lowering serotonin will probably elevate dopamine and increasing dopamine will probably lower serotonin. If I had to choose, I'd lower serotonin first since it is such a broad acting metabolic regulator and reducing it has profound effect on metabolism and virtually all aspects of physical and mental health.

 

[TeslaFan]

A hallmark of depression is deeply analytical thought, and inability to let go of memories of past events. In depression, the brain tries to collect as much information as possible (hence remembering the past in such vivid detail) in order to increase the statistical validity/significance of any generalizations the over-rumination is bound to come up with.

So well said. Anyone who experienced depression can relate to this.

 

[kineticz]

Lysine continues to be a very effective supplement. I am also having great results with high dose Vitamin E. My mood and libido shot up, and also my ability to confront challenges.

 

[Peata]

Excellent, combining 1gram lysine with a powerful ioniser, plenty of orange juice and carbs, copper, bcaas, and aspirin are proving highly effective in boosting what appears to be my dopamine pathways.

What "powerful ionizers" are you thinking of, kin?

And on the bcaa's...
do you take them in the haidut fashion,
and do you then just add the lysine to that mix?

I have an expensive ionizer on my bed-side table, and recently I have found that I wake up without sinus irritation or mucus, whereas previously I would always wake up in an allergic type state with poor breathing.

I take the bcaa's before exercise to increase performance.

I read about lysine as something that helps biotin in the mitochondria pathways. I then came across studies as a sero receptor blocker.

What is the benefit of biotin in those pathways, if you can easily explain. And the second bolded sentence, do you mean lysine is a serotonin receptor blocker? editing - I found theto answer 2nd question easily enough.

 

[Peata]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this

I believe I've read where it can take weeks or months to build up to effect. Was it like that for you, or did it kick in after first dose?

I'm highly sensitive to hormones, supplements and vitamins. Has taken me a while to realise that actually, most of it is pointless, due to being so sensitive. My genetic setpoint is to maintain a low state of balance, rather than excess.

I also never attempted to directly block serotonin until now. I only tried BCAAs and that wasn't with the intention to block serotonin. In a short space of time my mood is better, but I am showing signs of adaptation, such as migraines and lines down fingernails.

Lysine reduced my anxiety after the first dose 1 x 500mg.

just to be clear, do you mean the BCAAs are giving you signs of adaptation - migraines, fingernail lines, or were you referring to lysine?

 

[kineticz]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this

I believe I've read where it can take weeks or months to build up to effect. Was it like that for you, or did it kick in after first dose?

I'm highly sensitive to hormones, supplements and vitamins. Has taken me a while to realise that actually, most of it is pointless, due to being so sensitive. My genetic setpoint is to maintain a low state of balance, rather than excess.

I also never attempted to directly block serotonin until now. I only tried BCAAs and that wasn't with the intention to block serotonin. In a short space of time my mood is better, but I am showing signs of adaptation, such as migraines and lines down fingernails.

Lysine reduced my anxiety after the first dose 1 x 500mg.

just to be clear, do you mean the BCAAs are giving you signs of adaptation - migraines, fingernail lines, or were you referring to lysine?

The migraines have been gone for a while now. I find it was excessive low blood sugar. It can go low when thyroid is low and inflammation is high.

Fingernail lines I pinpointed to my copper intake. I think it was depleting key nutrients such as zinc.

 

[charlie]

Fingernail lines I pinpointed to my copper intake. I think it was depleting key nutrients such as zinc.

Were you supplementing copper?

 

[kineticz]

Fingernail lines I pinpointed to my copper intake. I think it was depleting key nutrients such as zinc.

Were you supplementing copper?

I was indeed.

Initially it gave me a tremendous boost in motivation and energy (perhaps dopa beta hydroxlase) but this stopped and I felt as if my finger nails were aching so stopped.

 

[Peata]

have you noticed any unwanted side effects from lysine?

 

[narouz]

have you noticed any unwanted side effects from lysine?

I think it's in this thread up a ways, Peata,
but kin says he got an unpleasant feeling from high doses of lysine
or maybe lysine plus biotin.
I had said something was giving me a "scared-y cat" feeling,
and he suggested the lysine or lysine+biotin.
It is my leading suspect at this point,
as I've avoided lysine over 2g per day,
or lysine in combo with biotin,
with no recurrence.
While picking back up use of the other suspects at the time, like methylene blue.
(Thanks for the tip, kin!)