Bag Breathing Helps Flu; Ventilators And Oxygen Probably Kill

[ecstatichamster]

I am experiencing some chest tightness. Bag breathing or Frolov device or pauses always helps.

The worst thing I could do was get oxygen or be “ventilated”. I don’t need any of that, my point is that would kill me and probably accounts for most of the so-called COVID-19 deaths.

 

[Beastmode]

I am experiencing some chest tightness. Bag breathing or Frolov device or pauses always helps.

The worst thing I could do was get oxygen or be “ventilated”. I don’t need any of that, my point is that would kill me and probably accounts for most of the so-called COVID-19 deaths.

Maybe this "pandemic" of people being put on 100% oxygen will be the launch for someone to show the mainstream that this is potentially killing people.

 

[Collden]

Mechanical ventilators are also a common cause of pneumonia and lung injury in ICU, at least in part because of the physical damage done by the tube and subsequent bacterial infections, although hyperoxia is also recognized as contributing.
Ventilator-associated lung injury - Wikipedia

There are plenty of studies on that so it should be common knowledge in hospitals, although I wonder how they make the call whether the necessity of putting someone on a ventilator outweighs the known risks of doing so. I read in one hospital they were actually forgoing the less invasive oxygen masks and going straight for ventilators because it posed less risk of contamination for the staff.

 

[nad]

Then what sick people should do? Not going to hospitals and doing what?

 

[ecstatichamster]

They should avoid going to the hospital if at all possible.

All the things we’ve talked about should be tried including Losartan and antihistamine.

 

[nad]

They should avoid going to the hospital if at all possible.


All the things we’ve talked about should be tried including Losartan and antihistamine.

Thanks hamster.
First - Safety of ACEIs and ARBs in Patients With COVID-19—What Is the Evidence? and all the references below it.
And if a person is already very sick and out of breath, how to help symptoms?
Do you think it's more safe to stay home then go to ER?
Which is more risky?
Do you or somebody know examples or all of our conversations here on forum are hypothetical?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think it's far safer to stay at home.

 

[nad]

Hey people,
any info. or statistic yet - did people survive after ventilation?
Or without it in severe cases?

 

[TheSir]

Hey people,
any info. or statistic yet - did people survive after ventilation?
Or without it in severe cases?

If no one survived the ventilation I'd like to believe that doctors are smart enough to realize that something was up.

 

[nad]

If no one survived the ventilation I'd like to believe that doctors are smart enough to realize that something was up.

really!?I'd like to believe it too.
Then, does it mean it's not SO deadly? Pray, cross your fingers... jump!
So, nobody know

 

[Blossom]

If no one survived the ventilation I'd like to believe that doctors are smart enough to realize that something was up.

Sorry, I don’t know the source but it doesn’t look too good for surviving invasive mechanical ventilation if this is correct.

 

[David PS]

View attachment 17190
Sorry, I don’t know the source but it doesn’t look too good for surviving invasive mechanical ventilation if this is correct.

page 7 of
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(20)30566-3

 

[methylenewhite]

View attachment 17190
Sorry, I don’t know the source but it doesn’t look too good for surviving invasive mechanical ventilation if this is correct.

This means that 2 days gap in starting mechanical ventilation between survivors vs non-survivors is critical as well as earlier, 1 day earlier actually, start of corticosteroids.

 

[Blossom]

page 7 of
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(20)30566-3

Thanks!

 

[ecstatichamster]

page 7 of
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(20)30566-3

Thank you

 

[nad]

This means that 2 days gap in starting mechanical ventilation between survivors vs non-survivors is critical as well as earlier, 1 day earlier actually, start of corticosteroids.

Did I get it right that survivors didn't get ventilation at all and those who got it all dead?
They also did get corticosteroids, but 1 or 2 days later(why?) and then after two more days they were put on ventilation ( because steroids didn't work?) They don't discus it .

"Comorbidities were present in nearly half of patients, with hypertension being the most common comorbidity, followed by diabetes and coronary heart disease (table 1). The most common symptoms on admission were fever and cough, followed by sputum production and fatigue (table 1). Lymphocytopenia occurred in 77 (40%) patients. 181 (95%) patients received antibiotics and 41 (21%) received antivirals (lopinavir/ritonavir; table 2). Systematic corticosteroid and intravenous immunoglobulin use differed significantly between non-survivors and survivors (table 2). The comparison of characteristics, treatment, and outcomes of patients from the two hospitals are shown in the appendix (pp 2–4). The median time from illness onset (ie, before admission) to discharge was 22·0 days (IQR 18·0–25·0), whereas the median time to death was 18·5 days (15·0–22·0; table 2). 32 patients required invasive mechanical ventilation, of whom 31 (97%) died. The median time from illness onset to invasive mechanical ventilation was 14·5 days (12·0–19·0). Extracorporeal membrane oxygenation was used in three patients, none of whom survived. Sepsis was the most frequently observed complication, followed by respiratory failure, ARDS, heart failure, and septic shock (table 2). Half of non-survivors experienced a secondary infection, and ventilator-associated pneumonia occurred in ten (31%) of 32 patients requiring invasive mechanical ventilation. The frequency of complications were higher in non-survivors than survivors (table 2)."
...
"The initiation time and duration of systematic corticosteroid use was also similar between the two groups. Among non-survivors, the median time from illness onset was 10·0 days (7·0–14·0) to sepsis, 12·0 days (8·0–15·0) to ARDS, 14·5 days (9·5–17·0) to acute cardiac injury, and 17·0 days (13·0–19·0) to secondary infection (figure 1; table 2). Among survivors, secondary infection, acute kidney injury, and acute cardiac injury were observed in one patient each, occurring 9 days (acute kidney injury), 14 days (secondary infection), and 21 days (acute cardiac injury) after illness onset. The median time from dyspnoea to intubation was 10·0 days (IQR 5·0–12·5) for patients who received invasive mechanical ventilation and the time from invasive mechanical ventilation to occurrence of ventilator associated pneumonia was 8·0 days (2·0–9·0; figure 1)."
Looks like.. experiment?

 

[methylenewhite]

I made an error reading data. My previous post is a wrong assumption.

 

[md_a]

Ray Peat about therapies for COVID-19 killing patients.

Ray Peat: "I think that’s exactly what’s happening, irrational use of oxygen and immunosuppressive drugs like chloroquine."

“If people come in with a mild respiratory ailment and are over 70 years old, and they got put into pure oxygen atmosphere, that’s exactly the wrong thing to do, but is what almost all the hospitals in the world are doing, thinking they need oxygen, they are having trouble breathing so they give them pure oxygen, but CO2 is anti-inflammatory, and you give them pure oxygen 5 times more than normal you tremendously displacing the natural balance of carbon dioxide which is anti-inflammatory stuff in our breath. Several good research projects have found that if you hypoventilate people who were having some problem in hospital-like surgery, slight hypoventilation to let the co2 built up reduces inflammation and produces much better outcomes overall because inflammation is such a pathogen in any kind of sickness and especially in this particular virus infection or any lung infection. The symptoms are basically inflammatory, the angiotensin system, the interferon system which turns on other inflammatory agents, histamine…, all of the defensive reactions triggered by this respiratory infections amplify inflammation and that causes the congestion, constriction, swelling, exudation of serum into the lungs, instead of an balance moisture, the serum and proteins in the blood lose out into the lungs and interfere with breathing. Anything you do to increase inflammation is going to increase that pneumonia tendency and general sickness, so oxygen and many of the virucidal chemicals that were giving, greatly intensify inflammation. That’s one of the reason old people are so susceptible. Different studies about 85 % of the proven infected people have almost no symptoms of infection, the main once who react badly and get very sick or die are mostly the very old people who already have some kind of degenerative circulatory or inflammatory kind of disease, heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, and so on. “Ray Peat

“Breathing pure oxygen lowers the oxygen content of tissues; breathing rarefied air, or air with carbon dioxide, oxygenates and energizes the tissues; if this seems upside down, it's because medical physiology has been taught upside down. And respiratory physiology holds the key to the special functions of all the organs, and too many of their basic pathological changes.” RP

“Breathing too much oxygen displaces too much carbon dioxide, provoking an increase in lactic acid; too much lactate displaces both oxygen and carbon dioxide. Lactate itself tends to suppress respiration.

Oxygen toxicity and hyperventilation create a systemic deficiency of carbon dioxide. It is this carbon dioxide deficiency that makes breathing more difficult in pure oxygen, that impairs the heart’s ability to work, and that increases the resistance of blood vessels, impairing circulation and oxygen delivery to tissues. In conditions that permit greater carbon dioxide retention, circulation is improved and the heart works more effectively. Carbon dioxide inhibits the production of lactic acid, and lactic acid lowers carbon dioxide's concentration in a variety of ways.” RP

 

[Blossom]

Did I get it right that survivors didn't get ventilation at all and those who got it all dead?

Yes.

 

[Collden]

Could just be that those put on ventilators were the most severely ill and would have deteriorated regardless, hard to judge without controlled studies.

I wonder if there's any evidence that people with "mild respiratory ailments" are being put on ventilators before it is necessary and thus deteriorating because of this, or is medical staff generally discerning enough to only put people on ventilators when its certain they would die without it?