Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

InChristAlone

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Thanks Janelle525! Glad you found it interesting, hopefully over the next few months it will become a valuable resource.

Big fan of Vitamin C and totally agree!
I'm so glad you are doing the mouse study! Can't wait to see how it turns out. If they end up surviving, the real test would be having babies and those babies growing up with no vitamin A either.
 
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Braveheart

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From a post by tim on Grant’s site about an Icelandic centenarian (age 105).

"The key to longevity is to stay clear of all modern healthfoods and stick to a strict diet of traditional Icelandic dishes of bread, meat or fish and potatoes, according to the third oldest person in Iceland."

"Guðrún told the local newspaper Morgunblaðið that she does her best to never eat fruits or vegetables. She admits that “once in a while” she might eat “very small portions” of cauliflower and cabbage. Bananas are the only fruits this centenarian is willing to taste. She also stays clear of food supplements and vitamin, as well as cod-liver oil."

"Guðrún told Morgunblaðið that she refuses to touch any “modern health foods”, sticking instead to traditional Icelandic home-cooked meals. Her favourite dish is Icelandic bread soup made with rúgbrauð and topped with whipped cream, as well as regular saltfish."
Good Viking...
 

Yi at LDT

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I'm so glad you are doing the mouse study! Can't wait to see how it turns out. If they end up surviving, the real test would be having babies and those babies growing up with no vitamin A either.
I had that same thought! The only issues I can think of are the lack of B12, poor quality proteine and the fact that males often get depressed when living alone, and otherwise fight.
All of those things can definately be overcome though. Might have to find a buck!
 

InChristAlone

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I had that same thought! The only issues I can think of are the lack of B12, poor quality proteine and the fact that males often get depressed when living alone, and otherwise fight.
All of those things can definately be overcome though. Might have to find a buck!
So the diet you are giving now is too low in b12? Could you do a supplement? Yeah I was kinda nervous about the protein quality too, but they seem like pigs, just eating whatever is available.
 

Yi at LDT

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They are pretty hardy animals that's for sure. there doesn't seem to be any major problem with B12 deficiency from what I've read, but I think I would supplement it as a precaution if I ever bread them. There's a lot of hype in the rodent world about protein percentages for reproduction. I think around 13% is the minimum for multiple healthy generations, and higher is ideal. I'm not sure how true that is. From what I've seen and read mice tend to eat what they like, not necessarily whats best for them or highest in protein. extruding my own blended pellets would really be ideal, supplementing b12 would then be pretty easy also, probably better then adding it to their water.

Someone recommended egg white on grant's forum, which as far as we know is O VA. I think Grant avoided all animal protein because of the possibility of it carrying hidden vitamin A as is the case with casein.
 

InChristAlone

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They are pretty hardy animals that's for sure. there doesn't seem to be any major problem with B12 deficiency from what I've read, but I think I would supplement it as a precaution if I ever bread them. There's a lot of hype in the rodent world about protein percentages for reproduction. I think around 13% is the minimum for multiple healthy generations, and higher is ideal. I'm not sure how true that is. From what I've seen and read mice tend to eat what they like, not necessarily whats best for them or highest in protein. extruding my own blended pellets would really be ideal, supplementing b12 would then be pretty easy also, probably better then adding it to their water.

Someone recommended egg white on grant's forum, which as far as we know is O VA. I think Grant avoided all animal protein because of the possibility of it carrying hidden vitamin A as is the case with casein.
Sounds like you have done your research! Excited to see what happens, are there are any ideas about how long a rodent can live without vitamin A? They can live 2 years so this could be a long experiment! Might need to make babies to test if fertility is in any way impacted, plus we don't know how long vitamin A could possibly be retained, so many generations might need to be experimented with. Which would probably be the fastest experiment since their gestation is so short.
 

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Kartoffel

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Would you mind posting a study that demonstrates this? I followed your link in hope to find something like this, but all I saw was a short abstract about mutant mice lacking crucial enzymes to process ß-carotene, and a few abstracts of studies where they fed animals toxic canthaxanthin. Not that I am particularly fond of carotenes, but that's like feeding animals acutane, and then claiming that vitamin A is poisonous.
 

Amazoniac

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The guy is unstoppable.
Smith (2019) said:
If you like your eyes, you shouldn't like Poison/"Vitamin A".

It was not removed from context, it's his conclusion. With this lowering of everyone's standards, whatever I post next is going to read magnificent.

People might feel tempted to go heavier on supplemental zinc given its importance in poison/"vitamin" A metabolism, but copper might become compromised. The following speculations are by or involve Thomas Moore, an ultra-boss. There are various publications by him in this thread and elsewhere.

- Vitamin A and Copper

"A symposium on the metabolism of vitamin A gives me a good opportunity for drawing attention to certain inverse relationships between vitamin A and copper which seem hitherto to have escaped notice. To start with, however, two similarities in their metabolism must be mentioned. First, Glover and Walker (1) found that in blood plasma vitamin A alcohol, but not esterified vitamin A, is carried by a protein in the a2-globulin fraction. It is very similar to the copper-carrying ceruloplasmin, but not identical. Second, the liver is the favored site for the storage of both vitamin A and copper, although the predominance of the liver for this function is probably greater for the vitamin than for the metal."

"In reviewing inverse relationships let us start with pregnancy. In human maternal blood, during the later stages of gestation, vitamin A decreases (2, 3), but copper greatly increases (4). In the fetal liver the concentration of vitamin A only reaches a small fraction, usually not more than one-fifth, of that in the maternal liver (5, 6). In contrast, copper, according to animal experiments, may be 5-10 times more concentrated in the fetal than in the maternal liver (7, 8). A point of similarity, however, is that in the fetal blood plasma both vitamin A (9) and copper (10) are lower than in the maternal plasma."

"Regarding sex, there is massive evidence that in healthy human subjects the mean level of vitamin A in the blood plasma is some 20% higher for men than for women (11, 12). For copper, this relationship is reversed, with a 10% higher mean for women than for men (10, 13)."

"Inverse relationships also apply in human disease. In fevers, the vitamin A content of the blood plasma is decreased (14), but copper is greatly increased (15). In nephrosis, one of the few diseases in which the level of copper in the blood plasma is decreased (16), vitamin A is increased (17)."

"These interrelationships seem consistent enough to raise suspicions that there may be some reciprocating interplay between vitamin A and copper in their metabolism and mode of action. Underwood (18) has reviewed the role of copper in keratinization. Fell and Mellanby (19) have shown that, in tissue culture, excess of vitamin A may oppose keratinization and promote mucus formation. Studies of vitamin A metabolism in Wilson’s disease, and of copper metabolism in hypo- and hypervitarninosis A, both clinical and experimental, might give interesting results."​

- Copper and vitamin A concentrations in the blood of normal and Cu-poisoned sheep

"Moore (1969, 1970) has pointed out that retinol and copper behave similarly in being stored preferentially in the liver, and being carried in blood plasma in combination with similar, but different a,-globulins (Glover & Walker, 1964; Kanai, Raz & Goodman, 1968). Otherwise the interrelationships of these two nutrients are often inverse. Physiological or pathological factors that tend to increase the concentration of one of them often decrease the concentration of the other."

"In the blood of healthy men the mean for vitamin A is usually some 20% higher than for women in the same population (Kimble, 1938-9; Leitner, Moore & Sharman [do not confuse with Shaman], 19601, but for Cu the mean is 10% higher for women than for men (Cartwright, 1950). In both sexes fever is usually associated with a greatly decreased blood concentration of retinol (Lindqvist, 1938) but Cu is increased (Wintrobe, Cartwright & Gubler, 1953). In nephrosis, one of the few human diseases associated with raised blood concentrations of retinol (Kagan, Thomas, Jordan & Abt, 1950), Cu is decreased (Krebs, 1928; Cartwright, Gubler & Wintrobe, 1954)."

"All the above findings, although consistent in their total effect, were obtained in separate investigations on either retinol or Cu. Studies by Owen (1965) and Owen, Proudfoot, Robertson, Barlow, Butler & Smith (1965) on relationships between retinol and Cu in the blood and liver of kids, therefore, gain importance from being carried out simultaneously on the same animals. In blood specimens taken from kids aged 5-23 d a statistically significant inverse relationship between retinol and Cu was found."

"We already know, however, that the concentration of retinol in the blood is largely dependent on the synthesis, presumably in the liver, of its carrier ‘retinol binding protein’ (RBP). Similarly, Cu is carried in the blood plasma in combination with protein, although here [copper toxicity] the situation is complicated by the presence of the metal, unlike the vitamin, in substantial amounts in both the corpuscles and plasma. According to evidence already reviewed, the Cu and retinol complexes must be responsive to various stimuli, including hormones. Damage to the liver can be expected to interfere with the syntheses of the complexes."

"Pressure on the mechanisms for the synthesis of carrier proteins, however, may affect differently the amounts of each nutrient carried in the blood, with the possibility of competition for the synthesis of the respective carrier proteins."

"The finding of Owen et al. (1965) of an inverse relationship between Cu and retinol concentrations in the blood of kids was made in animals intentionally deprived of Cu. These authors suggest that an abnormal accumulation of retinol occurred through its inefficient absorption by the Cu-deficient liver and drew attention to other claims that Cu may facilitate the storage of retinol (Simek, Mandel, Travnicek & Syrinek, 1961 ; Anthony & Nix, 1965 ; Idris & Haag, 1965). In the liver of our one Cu-deficient sheep, however, a high-retinol reserve was found."​

- Anyone Here Speak German Willing To Translate Part Of A Study?

Kartoffel :pray

Since the author 'Wolfgang Schlosser' has disappeared and his email doesn't work, I tried to contact co-authors: Bertram, Bettina, and Frank through Researching the Gates but also without success. However I haven't tried to contact the institution.​

I remember reading something about copper requirements remaining elevated for a while after discontinuing accutane; don't know where and not sure if it's correct.
 

Kartoffel

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The guy is unstoppable.


It was not removed from context, it's his conclusion. With this lowering of everyone's standards, whatever I post next is going to read magnificent.

People might feel tempted to go heavier on supplemental zinc given its importance in poison/"vitamin" A metabolism, but copper might become compromised. The following speculations are by or involve Thomas Moore, an ultra-boss. There are various publications by him in this thread and elsewhere.

- Vitamin A and Copper

"A symposium on the metabolism of vitamin A gives me a good opportunity for drawing attention to certain inverse relationships between vitamin A and copper which seem hitherto to have escaped notice. To start with, however, two similarities in their metabolism must be mentioned. First, Glover and Walker (1) found that in blood plasma vitamin A alcohol, but not esterified vitamin A, is carried by a protein in the a2-globulin fraction. It is very similar to the copper-carrying ceruloplasmin, but not identical. Second, the liver is the favored site for the storage of both vitamin A and copper, although the predominance of the liver for this function is probably greater for the vitamin than for the metal."

"In reviewing inverse relationships let us start with pregnancy. In human maternal blood, during the later stages of gestation, vitamin A decreases (2, 3), but copper greatly increases (4). In the fetal liver the concentration of vitamin A only reaches a small fraction, usually not more than one-fifth, of that in the maternal liver (5, 6). In contrast, copper, according to animal experiments, may be 5-10 times more concentrated in the fetal than in the maternal liver (7, 8). A point of similarity, however, is that in the fetal blood plasma both vitamin A (9) and copper (10) are lower than in the maternal plasma."

"Regarding sex, there is massive evidence that in healthy human subjects the mean level of vitamin A in the blood plasma is some 20% higher for men than for women (11, 12). For copper, this relationship is reversed, with a 10% higher mean for women than for men (10, 13)."

"Inverse relationships also apply in human disease. In fevers, the vitamin A content of the blood plasma is decreased (14), but copper is greatly increased (15). In nephrosis, one of the few diseases in which the level of copper in the blood plasma is decreased (16), vitamin A is increased (17)."

"These interrelationships seem consistent enough to raise suspicions that there may be some reciprocating interplay between vitamin A and copper in their metabolism and mode of action. Underwood (18) has reviewed the role of copper in keratinization. Fell and Mellanby (19) have shown that, in tissue culture, excess of vitamin A may oppose keratinization and promote mucus formation. Studies of vitamin A metabolism in Wilson’s disease, and of copper metabolism in hypo- and hypervitarninosis A, both clinical and experimental, might give interesting results."​

- Copper and vitamin A concentrations in the blood of normal and Cu-poisoned sheep

"Moore (1969, 1970) has pointed out that retinol and copper behave similarly in being stored preferentially in the liver, and being carried in blood plasma in combination with similar, but different a,-globulins (Glover & Walker, 1964; Kanai, Raz & Goodman, 1968). Otherwise the interrelationships of these two nutrients are often inverse. Physiological or pathological factors that tend to increase the concentration of one of them often decrease the concentration of the other."

"In the blood of healthy men the mean for vitamin A is usually some 20% higher than for women in the same population (Kimble, 1938-9; Leitner, Moore & Sharman [do not confuse with Shaman], 19601, but for Cu the mean is 10% higher for women than for men (Cartwright, 1950). In both sexes fever is usually associated with a greatly decreased blood concentration of retinol (Lindqvist, 1938) but Cu is increased (Wintrobe, Cartwright & Gubler, 1953). In nephrosis, one of the few human diseases associated with raised blood concentrations of retinol (Kagan, Thomas, Jordan & Abt, 1950), Cu is decreased (Krebs, 1928; Cartwright, Gubler & Wintrobe, 1954)."

"All the above findings, although consistent in their total effect, were obtained in separate investigations on either retinol or Cu. Studies by Owen (1965) and Owen, Proudfoot, Robertson, Barlow, Butler & Smith (1965) on relationships between retinol and Cu in the blood and liver of kids, therefore, gain importance from being carried out simultaneously on the same animals. In blood specimens taken from kids aged 5-23 d a statistically significant inverse relationship between retinol and Cu was found."

"We already know, however, that the concentration of retinol in the blood is largely dependent on the synthesis, presumably in the liver, of its carrier ‘retinol binding protein’ (RBP). Similarly, Cu is carried in the blood plasma in combination with protein, although here [copper toxicity] the situation is complicated by the presence of the metal, unlike the vitamin, in substantial amounts in both the corpuscles and plasma. According to evidence already reviewed, the Cu and retinol complexes must be responsive to various stimuli, including hormones. Damage to the liver can be expected to interfere with the syntheses of the complexes."

"Pressure on the mechanisms for the synthesis of carrier proteins, however, may affect differently the amounts of each nutrient carried in the blood, with the possibility of competition for the synthesis of the respective carrier proteins."

"The finding of Owen et al. (1965) of an inverse relationship between Cu and retinol concentrations in the blood of kids was made in animals intentionally deprived of Cu. These authors suggest that an abnormal accumulation of retinol occurred through its inefficient absorption by the Cu-deficient liver and drew attention to other claims that Cu may facilitate the storage of retinol (Simek, Mandel, Travnicek & Syrinek, 1961 ; Anthony & Nix, 1965 ; Idris & Haag, 1965). In the liver of our one Cu-deficient sheep, however, a high-retinol reserve was found."​

- Anyone Here Speak German Willing To Translate Part Of A Study?

Kartoffel :pray

Since the author 'Wolfgang Schlosser' has disappeared and his email doesn't work, I tried to contact co-authors: Bertram, Bettina, and Frank through Researching the Gates but also without success. However I haven't tried to contact the institution.​

I remember reading something about copper requirements remaining elevated for a while after discontinuing accutane; don't know where and not sure if it's correct.

Mach ich doch gern! But you would have to get me the full-text to translate it. Tried sci-hub with the pubmed url and the name of the study and couldn't get access.
 

Kartoffel

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Was in meinem Kopf vorging, war eine Bibliothek [:lol:] oder ähnliches. Wenn möglich, wäre das großartig.

Du Schelm. Well, I already did my research, and it seems the medical library of my university has a copy (not digitalized unfortunately) of the issue of the journal in which the study was origninally published. I'll see whether I can dig it up.
 

Blossom

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Du Schelm. Well, I already did my research, and it seems the medical library of my university has a copy (not digitalized unfortunately) of the issue of the journal in which the study was origninally published. I'll see whether I can dig it up.
Thank you.
 

Amazoniac

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Du Schelm. Well, I already did my research, and it seems the medical library of my university has a copy (not digitalized unfortunately) of the issue of the journal in which the study was origninally published. I'll see whether I can dig it up.
I now understand gift boxes. The excitement in having to work harder for it and not knowing what you'll find is unparalleled, hopefully it meets our expectations. Thank you as well.
 

InChristAlone

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@Amazoniac,
molybdenumDrSMith.JPG
 

InChristAlone

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You've Been Lied to About Carrots Your Whole Life Because of Nazis

"According to Stolarczyk, the myth began during World War II, when the Nazis were bombing the bejeezus out of London at night. Then, seemingly out of no where, the British Royal Air Force started shooting down more Nazi planes. How did they do it? With the help of a new radar that the RAF, of course, did not want anybody to know about. Smithsonian explains:

The Royal Air Force were able to repel the German fighters in part because of the development of a new, secret radar technology. The on-board Airborne Interception Radar (AI), first used by the RAF in 1939, had the ability to pinpoint enemy bombers before they reached the English Channel. But to keep that under wraps, according to Stolarczyk’s research pulled from the files of the Imperial War Museum, the Mass Observation Archive, and the UK National Archives, the Ministry provided another reason for their success: carrots.

When the papers asked how pilots where shooting down planes in the dark, the RAF simply responded that pilots had been hitting their root veggies hard. A bold-faced lie! But one that helped save London—and the world—from Nazi tyranny."​
 

Amazoniac

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A diet with beans, rice and organ meats or shellfish can provide a lot of it.

- Manganese and Molybdenum Contents in Rice

upload_2019-2-19_7-41-15.png

Using the lowest content detected, 400 g already provides you 90 mcg. Here it was 30 mcg/100 g.

Regarding shellfishes, mussels in the following publication were found to contain on average 110 mcg/100 g, and the maximum was 300 mcg/100 g.

- Li, Cr, Mn, Co, Ni, Cu, Zn, Se and Mo levels in foodstuffs from the Second French TDS

@Jennifer
 
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EIRE24

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Hey @Makrosky,:wave:

I’ve been doing this for a little over 7 months and purposefully not restricting anything beyond high A and carotene foods. My bp and cholesterol are now normal. Skin hair, nails and menopause symptoms are greatly improved. I no longer need any meds and barely take any supplements. My vision is clearer and this is my first winter in memory with zero SAD symptoms.

I absolutely DID NOT want this theory to be true. I’m not saying it’s good for everyone to reduce A by any stretch-just that it’s helped me.

I’m not convinced it’s an absolute toxin but I know I over did A in the past though diet, supplements and retin-a. Perhaps it’s similar to estrogen and has very specific roles limited to certain times in the life cycle. I don’t know.
Blossom, What does a day of eating look like for you? What skin problems did you have prior to this? Any tips on how to detox?
 

Blossom

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Blossom, What does a day of eating look like for you? What skin problems did you have prior to this? Any tips on how to detox?
These are foods I commonly eat but each day is different. I eat ruminant meat basically everyday, rice, white potatoes, lots of low A fruits, juices and jelly, maple syrup, honey and some white vegetables, mushrooms, oxtail and occasional egg whites, turkey, scallops, tilapia, gluten free white bread, white corn, black and white beans. I use olive oil and small amount of butter. Cocoa powder for making hot chocolate (with water and sugar)! I'm doing organic as much as possible. I hope I remembered everything!
I copied the above from an earlier post in this thread. My skin wasn’t my primary concern but it became extremely dry and flaky yet oily at the same time last year with lips cracking especially in the corners. I had a few unusual red spots and some that had been around for a couple years that are now gone. My hair was thinning, extremely oily and growing in kinky. I had dermatitis herpetiformis from celiac on both elbows that would flare up slightly and randomly despite not eating gluten. My finger prints were atrophied indicating inflammation and they healed within a month or two.
I basically just stopped eating high A and carotene food to detox. I have donated blood 3 times and do UV light 1-2 times per week since it’s winter.
 

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