Paradoxical Thrombotic Effects Of Aspirin: Experimental Study On 1000 Animals

TreasureVibe

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Paradoxical thrombotic effects of aspirin: experimental study on 1000 animals. - PubMed - NCBI

CONCLUSION:

COX 2 inhibition induced a pro-thrombotic effect that was antagonized by aspirin at 1 mg/kg or 100 mg/kg. The administration of the lowest aspirin doses induced a pro-thrombotic effect stronger than the antithrombotic effect of COX 1 selective inhibition. The mechanism of this last pro-thrombotic effect is induced by residual aspirin and is independent of COX 1 inhibition. This study may explain the cause of the paradoxical thrombo-embolic complications observed after aspirin discontinuation, an effect of residual aspirin rather than a rebound effect, and highlights the importance of low doses of substances as a barely studied source of side-effects.

@haidut What does this mean? Is aspirin dangerous when prone to thrombosis in the leg? (DVT)
 

jaakkima

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All I know is that I was taking aspirin all 3 times I had pulmonary embolisms, so in my personal case it either wasn't enough to stop the underlying process, or it contributed possibly. I know it never made me feel quite right, perhaps aggravating GI issues, though it seemed to also help sometimes too. Although I was taking higher doses. I think there are for me other issues at play, perhaps deficiencies, glycine and Vitamin A are currently on my radar. Interesting article anyway. I definitely think aspirin is a lot sketchier in its efficacy for VTE than for arterial clotting. Though I suspect it depends individually on the cause.
 
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TreasureVibe

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All I know is that I was taking aspirin all 3 times I had pulmonary embolisms, so in my personal case it either wasn't enough to stop the underlying process, or it contributed possibly. I know it never made me feel quite right, perhaps aggravating GI issues, though it seemed to also help sometimes too. Although I was taking higher doses. I think there are for me other issues at play, perhaps deficiencies, glycine and Vitamin A are currently on my radar. Interesting article anyway. I definitely think aspirin is a lot sketchier in its efficacy for VTE than for arterial clotting. Though I suspect it depends individually on the cause.
I noticed stingy pains in my calf after having aspirin. COX-2 inhibition causes a pro-thrombotic effect, due to residual aspirin. So low dose aspirin if you want to use aspirin at all, would be the safest. As in the study low dose aspirin blocked the pro-thrombotic effect of previously administered higher dose aspirin. But if you're prone to DVT/VTE vitamin E should be one of your best friends. And vitamin C perhaps too. But do some more research on the latter first, in regards to its relation with thrombosis. Vitamin E is a vitamin K antagonist and can slowly and safely dissolve blood clots.
 

jaakkima

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I used Vitamin E too. I was using it (and other things that should work) this time, and I just had another PE, within a week off warfarin. I don't know what's causing all this.
 

goodandevil

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I used Vitamin E too. I was using it (and other things that should work) this time, and I just had another PE, within a week off warfarin. I don't know what's causing all this.
Have u tried a serotonin antagonist?
 

jaakkima

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Have u tried a serotonin antagonist?
Yes, all the major ones known here. I tried that this time too. For one evening high dose cypro made me feel awesome. Then the next day, didn't help at all. I've had the same unpredictability from most substances and things I've done.
 
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TreasureVibe

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Yes, all the major ones known here. I tried that this time too. For one evening high dose cypro made me feel awesome. Then the next day, didn't help at all. I've had the same unpredictability from most substances and things I've done.
I wouldn't go with the aspirin tbh but it's your own choice. Have you had tests to check for all known genetic factors that could cause abnormal clotting? Also, are you hydrated enough throughout the day? And is your magnesium intake sufficient? Don't use any fish oil or other oral oil supplement.
 

jaakkima

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What was the dose you were using for vitamin E?

It's a little unclear to me since I'm using Mitolipin for it, 40 drops topically, and there's some ambiguity to me there based on statements from haidut and the appearance of the substance. Internal Vitamin E irritates my gut badly. Nevertheless I've used high and low does before. Been doing Peat stuff and not eating Pufa almost 6 years.
Also, turns out now it's not 100% sure I clotted again because D-dimer was negative this time (sometimes it doesn't correspond to active clotting) and I was able to avoid a scan and get back on anticoagulants, but based on my symptoms like the other times I think I did.
 
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TreasureVibe

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It's a little unclear to me since I'm using Mitolipin for it, 40 drops topically, and there's some ambiguity to me there based on statements from haidut and the appearance of the substance. Internal Vitamin E irritates my gut badly. Nevertheless I've used high and low does before. Been doing Peat stuff and not eating Pufa almost 6 years.
Also, turns out now it's not 100% sure I clotted again because D-dimer was negative this time (sometimes it doesn't correspond to active clotting) and I was able to avoid a scan and get back on anticoagulants, but based on my symptoms like the other times I think I did.
I personally would be wary of absorption rate of vitamin E through the skin opposed to oral. I remember reading members here swished vitamin E with olive oil in their mouths thoroughly before swallowing, for better absorption. I also remember reading on the DVT forum that a person there knew a person who managed to thin his blood to the same required requirement using vitamin E, as he slowly weaned off his Warfarin and slowly started using vitamin E. He had a device at home with which he could measure the thinness of the blood, so he was sure vitamin E helped him. It could be adviceable for you too to use such a device. Again, I would be wary of vitamin E's absorption through the skin. You also need very high daily doses of vitamin E in order to receive its blood thinning effects on the same level as pharmaceutical blood thinners.
 

jaakkima

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I personally would be wary of absorption rate of vitamin E through the skin opposed to oral. I remember reading members here swished vitamin E with olive oil in their mouths thoroughly before swallowing, for better absorption. I also remember reading on the DVT forum that a person there knew a person who managed to thin his blood to the same required requirement using vitamin E, as he slowly weaned off his Warfarin and slowly started using vitamin E. He had a device at home with which he could measure the thinness of the blood, so he was sure vitamin E helped him. It could be adviceable for you too to use such a device. Again, I would be wary of vitamin E's absorption through the skin. You also need very high daily doses of vitamin E in order to receive its blood thinning effects on the same level as pharmaceutical blood thinners.

Thanks, I'll look into all that. I wasn't aware you could get a clotting time measuring device for home use, esp as I'd asked at the doc's office. But I'm sure where there's a will there's some way. It never seemed to affect my INR when I used 400-800IU orally in the past. I believe I was using 1600 orally the last time I had a big PE. The intestinal inflammation seems to me to be the proximal cause of the clotting, so I felt like eliminating irritating things would be better. It seems to cause bad diarrhea. I guess I can slowly experiment and watch my INR again now though, look into that device. You don't know any details about it?
 

jaakkima

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Ok, so I finally read the abstract and it sounds to me like this study is saying that the lower aspirin doses (or "higher dilution", or residual aspirin) caused the prothrombotic effect, while the higher doses negated that. Which would be in line with other studies I've seen. I'm no expert at reading studies but it looks like this is what the abstract is clearly saying.
 
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TreasureVibe

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Ok, so I finally read the abstract and it sounds to me like this study is saying that the lower aspirin doses (or "higher dilution", or residual aspirin) caused the prothrombotic effect, while the higher doses negated that. Which would be in line with other studies I've seen. I'm no expert at reading studies but it looks like this is what the abstract is clearly saying.
Yes this could be the case. Basically whenever you quit taking aspirin of 15 mg and above, a pro-thrombotic rebound effect will occur, this will always happen, unless you apparently start the 15mg or above dose of aspirin again.

Gut irritation seems like a good reason to research gut health, endotoxin. Once again, vitamin E's absorption is a problem I think. There definitely needs to be bile to absorb fat soluble vitamins. If your liver doesn't make enough you simply don't absorb the fat soluble vitamin. The fact that vitamin E is irritating your intestinal lining could be a sign that its passing your duodenum unabsorbed thus emphasizing the need for proper bile. If fat soluble vitamins don't get absorbed in the duodenum I suspect they will just linger in your intestines, causing the irritation, but I might be wrong. Perhaps someone else can fill that in.
 

Kyle Bigman

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They say in the study that the thrombotic effect is not a consequence of some kind of "rebound," but rather is due to this "residual" effect...but what does that mean?

Also––at lower doses, i.e. one baby aspirin daily, there are higher consequences of thrombosis after discontinuation? I have been on baby aspirin for a while now. I was thinking of tapering off soon but this doesn't really make sense unless we are talking about rebound withdrawal effects. So, now I'm not sure how to safely stop taking it...
 

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