Glass Vs Plastic Revised Poll

[Agent207]

Hello, very good and explanatory points. But I think is a bit biased and clearly oriented to plastics. I agree all choices has pros and cons, but you automatically try to dismiss amber glass, which I think its obviously the best trade off.

Ok its not perfect, just 10% opacity; but hey, they're under $0.5 price difference. $0.5!! not as perfect as the black glass, but I don't see value on the black glass at 10x the cost, just for a more UV protection. Most of us keep our supps in home, kitchen... not taking them exposed to sun. I take my k2 supp from cupboard and put it there again in a matter of seconds. You really think for a labelled amber glass it would be that overkill?? to pay 10 more times for black glass for better UV protection? at home?

I think its biased becouse at the poll you just put cheap plastic vs. "super expensive black glass" just for extra UV protection at 10x the cost of a usual amber glass. Obviously in that scenario everyone gonna pick plastic instead of paying outrageous price for the black resin glass.

The weight difference between plastic and glass for 1oz bottles is neligible. They don't break easy neither if well wrapped.

Im really not pretend to be too critic against you, I liked the story behind k2 stuff, I appreciate the effort to bring such a quality stuff, but i confess I got a bit shocked seeing it was in plastic, when a worse product like thorne's (the one I've been using until now) is glass contained.

I understand your convenience too, and if you think at the end is kind of messy or not so practical, its OK. Even I hate plastic, I´d still trust and would choose yours or haidut products more over the "big brands" :)

 

[healthnatura]

I have copied this thread over because I couldn't find a way to edit the poll. A valid point of not offering amber glass as a survey option was omitted.

Glass vs plastic bottles myth, misconceptions, pros and cons.

Packaging options in the supplement industry come in many forms. The main two are glass and plastic. First, neither is perfect and both have their strengths and weaknesses. For the sake of this article I will be restricting the subject to liquids and to the ones I use in glass and plastic options. Both product types have plastics involved and the properties of both will be discussed here. Please pardon me but I'm about to go all chemist geeky on you.

Glass
The industry promotes glass as a higher premium packaging for a few reasons but fail to mention its drawbacks. Glass is heavy and that weight adds to the feel of quality. Psychologically we tend to associate weight with quality.

The first stage of glass-container making begins with the hot end processes, where a furnace is first used to melt and formulate the glass feed stock. Soda-lime glass stock accounts for the majority (around 90 percent) of glass products, and is typically largely comprised of silica, with about 10 percent each of calcium oxide and lime. Small amounts of aluminum oxide, ferric oxide, barium oxide, sulfur trioxide, and magnesia also account for about 5 percent of soda-lime glass. Once the stock has been fed into the furnace, temperatures inside can be as high as 1675 degrees Fahrenheit before it is sent to be formed.

After formation, bottles undergo internal treatment, a process which makes the inside of the bottle more chemically-resistant, an important factor if the bottles are intended to hold alcohol or other degrading substances. Internal treatment can take place during formation or directly after, and typically involves treating the bottles with a gas mixture of fluorocarbons.

Light protection:
Amber glass is promoted as having superior light protection over plastic. While this is true for clear plastic it isn't true when compared to white LDPE plastic bottles. Amber glass has a very high clarity rate with an opacity of 10% and poor UV light filtering with a filter rate of 70%. Seventy percent sounds great doesn't it? But the UV filter rate is based on the opacity which is 10% or 70% of the 10%. This results in a actual UV protection rate of 7%.

Other than potential fluorocarbon residues the glass in of itself has zero phenol content thus has no potential for migration of chemical contaminants. But plastics exposure remains. The dropper top is Polypropylene.

Polypropylene (PP) is a highly versatile linear hydrocarbon polymer. PP is isotactic and has crystallization levels in between HDPE and LDPE levels, which makes it semi-rigid, tough, less dense, and resistant to chemicals, heat, and fatigue. It has good resistance to dilute acids and alkalis, alcohols, oils, and greases. It is excellent for any food-related products and is FDA, NSF, and USDA approved for direct contact. BPA is not used in the production process at any level including the base materials. There have not been any repeatable studies proving that chemical residues leach into the contents of PP containers.
Chemical Properties. Very strong against corrosion; doesn’t react with chemicals like alkaline substances, acids, etc. Low flammability. Poor UV resistance and will break down more quickly than LDPE.

Polypropylene contains a carbon backbone with only Carbon to Carbon Bonds and Carbon to Hydrogen bonds. The bonds look like the following: C-C C-H
It also contains methyl groups as well (CH3)

Chemical Production Process
Poly(propene) is produced from propene. Propene is produced in large quantities from gas oil, naphtha, ethane and propane. Ziegler-Natta catalysts are used in the polymerization process. These are produced by interaction of titanium chloride and an aluminium alkyl, such as triethyl aluminium.
Polymerization takes place in liquid propene, at a temperature of 340-360 K and pressures of 30-40 atm (to keep the propene as a liquid). After polymerization, solid polymer particles are separated from liquid propene, which is then recycled. The use of liquid propene as a solvent for the polymer as it is formed means that there is no need to use hydrocarbons such as the C4-C8 alkanes which are used in the parallel manufacture of poly(ethene).

To keep PP glossy, lubricated and from drying out prematurely it is often post treated with a petroleum lubricant. While this gives it eye appeal it also adds to potential chemical exposure.



Plastic bottles. (specifically my white squeeze bottle)
Is made from LDPE, low density polyethylene. BPA is not used in the production process at any level including the base materials.

Light Protection
White LDPE bottles have an opacity of 50% with a UV blocking rate of 99%. They block 99% of the 50% resulting in an actual protection rate of 48% compared to glass of 7%.


Ethylene is a rather stable gaseous hydrocarbon molecule that polymerizes only upon contact with catalysts. The ethylene used to produce LDPE has to be highly pure with no contaminants or the process won't work. Coordination polymerization is the most pervasive technology, which means that metal chlorides or metal oxides are used to trigger the polymerization of the gas into a solid. The most common catalyst is titanium chloride. Of the plastics available for packaging I consider LDPE one of the most pure. It only has two ingredients to its production.

Is there a leaching problem?
I have been asked by a number of people about the safety of using plastic bottles for packaging liquid supplements. Their worry is that chemicals may leach out of the plastic bottle on prolonged contact and cause harm.

The main worries are these:
Plasticisers may leach out. Some of these are known endocrine disruptors, e.g. ortho phthalate esters mimic female hormones.

Unreacted monomer (the materials from which the plastic is made) or other compounds formed when the plastic is made may leach out.

I have some experience as a chemist, and offer the following comments:

LDPE contains no plasticisers, so there is no danger from orthophthalate esters.

Leaching of ethylene is to be expected to some extent but the amounts are very low. Ethylene in its natural state is a light gas and prefers to migrate through the path of least resistance, which is not into the bottle but into the air.

The other residue with potential migration is titanium chloride. Titanium chloride is non toxic, very stable and biologically inert. Titanium in various forms is heavily used in medicine because of this quality.

Molding LDPE it also very simple and clean. The molecular structure yields a very smooth surface so there is usually no need for mold release agents. LDPE can be shaped in two ways, injected into a form or blown into a mold much like glass.

Conclusions
So in the long run these low risks have to be balanced out with the advantages LDPE offers over glass. They are both clean, inert and pose no risk to the product or your health. In my LDPE bottles I use controlled flow inserts that allow for the precise dispensing of the product. This is important with high potency products because of the potential for poisoning such as vitamin A. Control flow droppers are also useful when precise dosing is desired for expensive products like vitamin K2. Plastic is also very useful for particularly messy products like Whole E which is so thick glass droppers don't work well at all. In my opinion plastic comes with a host of benefits Glass droppers also offer unique opportunities as well if they are designed properly. Black resin dipped bottles offer the highest light protection available on the market today 99+%. They are relatively new and are around 5 times more expensive than the traditional amber glass used in the market right now.


In summary, I selected LDPE for a variety of reasons from the discussion above. I'm not opposed to migrating my product line to resin dipped glass, but it will come at a moderate price increase. This price increase would also increase your shipping costs due to the increased product weight and increased weight of the packaging needed to protect the glass from breakage. There are however, products I believe require the additional layer of safety control flow droppers provide and these would not be converted to glass.

I have posted a survey above to get an idea of your opinions and desires on this subject. I look forward to your feedback.

 

[Agent207]

Healthnatura, based in your knowledge on the matter -which is obvious way larger than mine-, which one, in your sincere opinion if you were a customer, would you choose?

 

[healthnatura]

Hello, very good and explanatory points. But I think is a bit biased and clearly oriented to plastics. I agree all choices has pros and cons, but you automatically try to dismiss amber glass, which I think its obviously the best trade off.

Ok its not perfect, just 10% opacity; but hey, they're under $0.5 price difference. $0.5!! not as perfect as the black glass, but I don't see value on the black glass at 10x the cost, just for a more UV protection. Most of us keep our supps in home, kitchen... not taking them exposed to sun. I take my k2 supp from cupboard and put it there again in a matter of seconds. You really think for a labelled amber glass it would be that overkill?? to pay 10 more times for black glass for better UV protection? at home?

I think its biased becouse at the poll you just put cheap plastic vs. "super expensive black glass" just for extra UV protection at 10x the cost of a usual amber glass. Obviously in that scenario everyone gonna pick plastic instead of paying outrageous price for the black resin glass.

The weight difference between plastic and glass for 1oz bottles is neligible. They don't break easy neither if well wrapped.

Im really not pretend to be too critic against you, I liked the story behind k2 stuff, I appreciate the effort to bring such a quality stuff, but i confess I got a bit shocked seeing it was in plastic, when a worse product like thorne's (the one I've been using until now) is glass contained.

I understand your convenience too, and if you think at the end is kind of messy or not so practical, its OK. Even I hate plastic, I´d still trust and would choose yours or haidut products more over the "big brands" :)

I have copied your post over,

 

[healthnatura]

I base my bottle choices on what would I want if it were for my child. Most of the time that is the LDPE, for alcohol solutions it's glass.

Healthnatura, based in your knowledge on the matter -which is obvious way larger than mine-, which one, in your sincere opinion if you were a customer, would you choose?

 

[Agent207]

Well, thats enough for me. LPDE ok for lipids; if its ok for your child its ok for me :)

But now I got concerned about some of the idealabs supplements I use that are ethanol based

 

[healthnatura]

LDPE has a tendency to allow the alcohol to gas off over time. This is why I generally prefer glass. It's more for long term shelf life and integrity than contamination. However, contamination via bacteria growth is possible over time, but that time span would be measured in 4 + years. Herbal tinctures essentially have no expiration date and I like to exploit that potential than condemn a nice herb to an expiration date it doesn't need. For maximum potential I pack mine with a phenolic cone cap and provide the dropper top on the side to be put on once the bottle is opened. That way I can ensure a decade of freshness and a fresh, safe dropper top. The long term storage issues with glass are with the dropper top rubber degrading over time.

I don't do this for some of the lipid products I offer in glass because they have a defined expiration date and the oil helps keep the rubber top conditioned.

Your Idealabs products are just fine so long as they don't sit on the shelf for an extended time.

 

[Such_Saturation]

What is the black resin made of?

 

[keith]

I'm in favor of glass, partially just because I'm not very trusting of plastic research, which has claimed safety when not warranted (see BPA), and partially because glass is more environmentally friendly. Since you aren't a plastic manufacturer, and have significantly more chemistry knowledge than I do, I'll take your word for the safety of high quality LDPE, but still prefer the long proven safety, recyclability, and relatively low environmental impact of glass. Also, like Agent207, I keep my supplements in a cupboard, where light isn't much of a concern. I do appreciate your high level of focus on quality both in your supplements and packaging, though, and LDPE won't keep me from buying your products. I tend to be most interested in your powders, having bought your pregnenole, and planning to buy your niacinimide once my current supply is out, but I'm also planning to try your K-2 once my Kuinone is done, as I would like to compare the results.

 

[healthnatura]

Such Saturation: I will ask, the coating is on the outside.

Kieth: On an environmental impact level glass has a carbon footprint 10 times that of LDPE. This is due to the high heat required to melt the glass and the weight increasing the freight load. Yes the weight differences on an individual level seem minimal, glass is 44.1g/ea and plastic is 6.5g ea. but it adds up. I can hold 2000 plastic units with one hand in one box and the same volume in glass comes in multiple boxes carried on a dolly due to weight.

 

[healthnatura]

I'd like to offer some additional points.
First let me say that based on the facts I lean towards LDPE plastic. I suppose biased would be one way to put it. I hoped to offer as much information as possible about the two to present the case that both are safe and that by moving to glass you do not avoid plastic, in fact you add exposure to a highly phenolic plastic PP.

Secondly, I offer a number of my products in plastic and glass as a free upgrade. In those products, less than 4% select glass so my motivation to move to glass due to market demand is low at this time and if such a move were to be made it only makes sense to me to move in the positive direction of greater quality, not down. I will however add an amber glass option for the K2 as a free upgrade.

Third, cost basis and how that translates to final price is not linear and the price add on is an estimate at best because I haven't bought a 1000 to see how they would work out. To buy a few samples or a few hundred does not give me a feel for cost basis. The price change might only be $1. My cost and what you find on the net differ, usually my cost/unit is less because I buy 1000-2000 or more at a time, but there are many other factors involved, loss to breakage, heavy freight fees, differences in cleaning and prep and so on. Any broken bottle sends the entire pack to detailed (instead of standard) cleaning and close screening for glass shards. This is especially true for the glass droppers where broken pipettes are common. The shards can stick to the rubber so close inspection is required. Those selling an empty bottle on the net are not held to the same safety and QC requirements as I am because they are not selling a consumption ready product.

Wholesale bottles are packed differently, glass comes shrink wrapped together without padding 145 to a pack, in lot boxes of 5 flats or more. For small orders these are packed in another box with a little layer of popcorn padding and sent on their way. For large orders the boxes are stretch wrapped and strapped to a pallet. Pipettes are packed loose in large bags and dropped in a box. For both loss on arrival is expected.

Price is not as much about convenience but overall process requirements. It's rather simple, if you want it I can provide it, but there may be cost differences due to my narrow profit margin. I do this to give you the best value possible. Demand determines if those differences are worth it.

I hope this helps clarify things.

 

[Agent207]

I'd like to offer some additional points.
First let me say that based on the facts I lean towards LDPE plastic. I suppose biased would be one way to put it. I hoped to offer as much information as possible about the two to present the case that both are safe and that by moving to glass you do not avoid plastic, in fact you add exposure to a highly phenolic plastic PP.

That could be easily fixed having a dropper apart from the recipient. I mean, just the glass container with a standard top, and a dropper and rubber tool to use only for measuring when you take the product. That way you have the clean healthy glass without having the product in permanent contact with the PP.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I can see how the default option would be plastic, but it would be nice to have a glass option even if clear. I don't understand the risk with the rubber if the bottle sits upright. I saw that article that said monomers leach out of polyethylene as well, so I don't feel comfortable with any plastic, especially when the contents are often fatty or strong solvents.

 

[healthnatura]

I have made glass an option for all liquid supplements.

 

[ddjd]

does @haidut use LDPE for his products?

 

[haidut]

does @haidut use LDPE for his products?

Yes, it is LDPE.