1:1 Ratio For T3:T4

DaveFoster

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I'll be experimenting with a 1:1 T3:T4 ratio and updating here. I'll be posting comprehensive labs as well.

I've heard of one person settling on a 1:1.8 ratio of T3:T4, but has anyone tried a higher ratio of T3, such as a 1:1 ratio for T3:T4?

Dave Foster said:
With regards to a 1:1 T3 to T4 ratio you've mentioned for those with impaired livers, do you know of any lab values that would indicate too much T3 in their thyroid ratio and would suggest an increase in T4?

Raymond Peat said:
No, that can happen when stress increases reverse T3.

According to Ray Peat, in hypothyroid states a much more desirable ratio would be 3:1 or even 2:1.

Raymond Peat said:
[IDEAL SERUM RATIO OF TOTAL T4 AND T3] The serum T3/T4 ratio decreases with age and sickness. I think dose of a supplement should be based entirely on the signs of metabolic response.

Raymond Peat said:
[Ratio of T4 to T3, which is sometimes suggested to be wrong in NDT] Pigs' and cows' thyroids are very similar to people's, with a ratio usually between 3:1 and 4:1. The blood serum of hypothyroid people can have a ratio of 50:1 or 100:1, when the liver is failing to convert thyroxin. Maybe the authors of the book are physicians, educated by pharmaceutical advertisements.
 
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DaveFoster

DaveFoster

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Nice man, following closely. What doses are you looking at, frequency?
Right now I'm doing 15 mcg T3 and 10 mcg T4. I'm going to bump up T4 to 15 mcg next week.

Cool. How much are you going to take of either? I im going to try 2:1 or 1:1 myself
I'm guessing around 25 mcg of each, but possibly more.
 

Mossy

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Thanks. Watching as well.
 

haidut

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@haidut Can you think of any detrimental effects of a 1:1 T3:T4 ratio rather than, say a 1:2 ratio?

I think it would be fine for somebody very hypothyroid. The only downside I see is that with a ratio closes to 1:1 more and more of T4 gets quickly converted into T3, so it may end up being the same as a large dose T3, and that may cause issues with palpitations, blood glucose, etc.
 

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Haidut, didn't Ray Peat speak or write about T3 being down regulated if taken in excess?
 

haidut

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Haidut, didn't Ray Peat speak or write about T3 being down regulated if taken in excess?

Not downregulated, but something akin to deactivated - it gets converted into T2 and T1 (by various deiodinase enzymes), which have some thyroid effects but are much weaker than T3. T2/T1 can be converted back into T3 as needed but it is better to avoid too much T3 so that it spills over to them.
 
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DaveFoster

DaveFoster

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I think it would be fine for somebody very hypothyroid. The only downside I see is that with a ratio closes to 1:1 more and more of T4 gets quickly converted into T3, so it may end up being the same as a large dose T3, and that may cause issues with palpitations, blood glucose, etc.
Thank you. For someone who takes a 1:2 ratio of T3:T4 as in TyroMix and who happens to be severely hypothyroid and needs more T3, do you know of any signs besides the palpitations that shows to add in some additional T3, such as low pulse and temperature, high reverse T3, or high total T4?

Also, with blood glucose, what does that look like; just feelings of low blood sugar between meals?
 
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haidut

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Thank you. For someone who takes a 1:2 ratio of T3:T4 as in TyroMix and who happens to be severely hypothyroid and needs more T3, do you know of any signs besides the palpitations that shows to add in some additional T3, such as low pulse and temperature, high reverse T3, or high total T4?

Also, with blood glucose, what does that look like; just feelings of low blood sugar between meals?

Log blood glucose usually causes anxiety and nausea, as well as drop in core temps. If taking T3 leads to any of these I think this would be a sign of taking too much. Also, higher doses T3 seem to cause pulsating headaches, so that would be another sign to watch for.
 
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DaveFoster

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Log blood glucose usually causes anxiety and nausea, as well as drop in core temps. If taking T3 leads to any of these I think this would be a sign of taking too much. Also, higher doses T3 seem to cause pulsating headaches, so that would be another sign to watch for.
Great information, thank you.
 

haidut

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I find too much T3 makes me pretty angry. I would watch for that too.

That too, forgot to mention it is also a common sign. Thanks for bringing it up.
 
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DaveFoster

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I find too much T3 makes me pretty angry. I would watch for that too.
Haidut posted that high estrogen and high serotonin levels cause anger.

There's also this:

"Individuals with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM) and their healthcare practitioners believe that extreme blood glucose (BG) fluctuations are characterized by changes in subjective mood states and emotional behavior, as well as physical symptoms. This study examined relationships between BG levels and self-reported mood in a group of 34 IDDM adults. The method followed a within-subject, repeated-measures design employed in previous studies of physical symptoms associated with diabetic glucose. Four times each day, participants completed a mood/symptom checklist just prior to a self-measurement of BG until 40 checklists had been completed. Half the items on the checklist described physical symptoms and half described mood states. In addition, half the mood items described negative states and half described positive states. Within-subject correlations and regressions showed that moods were related to BG for the majority of participants and that, like physical symptoms, mood-BG relationships were highly idiosyncratic. Low BG levels tended to be associated with negative mood states, primarily self-reported "nervousness." Positive mood items were almost always associated with high BG. High BG levels also frequently correlated with negative mood states, although the negative mood items that tended to relate to high glucose (anger, sadness) differed from those that tended to relate to low BG. The implications of these findings for self-treatment and glucose perception in the IDDM individual are discussed."

Reference: Mood changes associated with blood glucose fluctuations in insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. - PubMed - NCBI
 

Tarmander

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Haidut posted that high estrogen and high serotonin levels cause anger.

There's also this:

"Individuals with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM) and their healthcare practitioners believe that extreme blood glucose (BG) fluctuations are characterized by changes in subjective mood states and emotional behavior, as well as physical symptoms. This study examined relationships between BG levels and self-reported mood in a group of 34 IDDM adults. The method followed a within-subject, repeated-measures design employed in previous studies of physical symptoms associated with diabetic glucose. Four times each day, participants completed a mood/symptom checklist just prior to a self-measurement of BG until 40 checklists had been completed. Half the items on the checklist described physical symptoms and half described mood states. In addition, half the mood items described negative states and half described positive states. Within-subject correlations and regressions showed that moods were related to BG for the majority of participants and that, like physical symptoms, mood-BG relationships were highly idiosyncratic. Low BG levels tended to be associated with negative mood states, primarily self-reported "nervousness." Positive mood items were almost always associated with high BG. High BG levels also frequently correlated with negative mood states, although the negative mood items that tended to relate to high glucose (anger, sadness) differed from those that tended to relate to low BG. The implications of these findings for self-treatment and glucose perception in the IDDM individual are discussed."

Reference: Mood changes associated with blood glucose fluctuations in insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. - PubMed - NCBI

Yeah, there may be some connection with too much thyroid and estrogen rising...another good reason to really space things out.

Blood sugar fluctuations really effect mood. Too low it’s anxious and crazy, too high can be depressed and angry.
 

SQu

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My experience using what seems to be quite poor, weak t4 (Eltroxin) and t3 (tertroxin) and breaking pills up (so not very precise) and going by symptoms is that for nearly 4 years I've taken 12ug t4 and 30ug t3 which is my ceiling beyond which I'll get arrhythmia on the t3 and racing heart on the t4. (Arrhythmia I'll get from other metabolism boosting, fuel-demanding things like more than 100mg b3. Always reversible, quickly.) Recently I've had some energy boosting success with MCT oil and since then I accidentally discovered I could raise t4 to 25ug. Slight arrhythmia slowly developed, a better bedtime snack eg cocoa butter in hot cocoa helps but it's only been a day or two.
My experience doesn't seem to follow expectations when it comes to ratio. Female, 50s, undiagnosed hypothyroid despite clear symptoms for years, also CFS background.
 

Mossy

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Hi DaveFoster, could you share what your overall objective is with this T3:T4 experiment?

Is it simply the obvious, to establish the optimal ratio to get out of a hypothyroid state: raise temps, pulse, and energy? If so, I would guess it's been a challenge to find this optimal ratio.
 
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DaveFoster

DaveFoster

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My experience using what seems to be quite poor, weak t4 (Eltroxin) and t3 (tertroxin) and breaking pills up (so not very precise) and going by symptoms is that for nearly 4 years I've taken 12ug t4 and 30ug t3 which is my ceiling beyond which I'll get arrhythmia on the t3 and racing heart on the t4. (Arrhythmia I'll get from other metabolism boosting, fuel-demanding things like more than 100mg b3. Always reversible, quickly.) Recently I've had some energy boosting success with MCT oil and since then I accidentally discovered I could raise t4 to 25ug. Slight arrhythmia slowly developed, a better bedtime snack eg cocoa butter in hot cocoa helps but it's only been a day or two.
My experience doesn't seem to follow expectations when it comes to ratio. Female, 50s, undiagnosed hypothyroid despite clear symptoms for years, also CFS background.
Thanks for sharing. That's very close to the 1:1 ratio, and a woman in her 50s fits Dr. Peat's description of one who may need a very high T3:T4 ratio due to poor liver conversion of the T4.
Hi DaveFoster, could you share what your overall objective is with this T3:T4 experiment?

Is it simply the obvious, to establish the optimal ratio to get out of a hypothyroid state: raise temps, pulse, and energy? If so, I would guess it's been a challenge to find this optimal ratio.
My goal of thyroid supplementation would be to eliminate anxiety.
 

Mossy

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