Ray Peat Email Advice Depository Discussion/Comment Thread

[Wagner83]

But here's his posts on the CO2 tank: Paging VOS- CO2 tank

His thread on diet is interesting, his diet is certainly peculiar, which is why I would be curious to know how he is doing, it's difficult for me to believe it's sustainable but he sounds like a smart guy.

It seems that Ray Peat still uses some thyroid, progesterone, and DHEA even though he has perfected his diet over the years. I thought I heard him mention his mother was hypothyroid, but I am not sure. I know she used progesterone during her pregnancy with him.

From what other people reported he doesn't use thyroid all the time, he uses it to combat the stress of winter, keep in mind he is 80 yo. You can't always control the environment either, sometimes ***t happens.

 

[theLaw]

His thread on diet is interesting, his diet is certainly peculiar, which is why I would be curious to know how he is doing, it's difficult for me to believe it's sustainable but he sounds like a smart guy.

I think he went through several very strict dietary phases to get to the point where he could experiment with large amounts of MCT oil as the base of his diet along with CO2. He claims that he emailed Peat about it, but that he didn't respond to that particular question.

Also, I've noticed that there are some people who can change their diet very easily while others find it to be a serious challenge, so perhaps orthorexia is simply not a real issue for him.

Personally, I find his threads some of the most useful on this forum.

 

[Wagner83]

If you think about it, some people have rice as their main sources of carbohydrates (tyw), one has pepsi, and VoS has mct oil, all of these are pretty much void of nutrients. That may make one wonder if eating very nutritious foods all the time is essential for health, or if, as Ray said, energy maintains cellular health and selectivity.

 

[Blossom]

“So after a certain point, even changing your diet away from the toxic, inhibiting fats won't do the job of restoring your thyroid function if you have accumulated so much of this age pigment, because it is going to waste any oxygen that your cells can receive. At this point, a whole system of degenerative conditions sets in, in which the mucoproteins increase because of the stress conditions, which are basically the same as the low thyroid conditions -- all of these lead to accumulating mucoid materials accumulating -- the blood vessels are lined with this material, the red blood cells can't pick up oxygen as efficiently because of this mucopolysaccharide layer, the lung sacs get expanded and thickened so that the air doesn't diffuse through them efficiently, and that increases the susceptibility of the aging animal to stress. A smaller stress makes them more acutely oxygen deficient, and that produces the age pigment at an even higher rate.”
The Thyroid, 1996, Gary Null Radio Show

Thanks @HDD, that's an exceptionally helpful quote. It explains quite a bit in simple terms that anyone can understand. I'm pretty sure I'll always need thyroid at least in the winter time but that's ok considering I didn't find Peat's work until my mid 40's. I shudder to think how things might be otherwise.

 

[HDD]

Thanks @HDD, that's an exceptionally helpful quote. It explains quite a bit in simple terms that anyone can understand. I'm pretty sure I'll always need thyroid at least in the winter time but that's ok considering I didn't find Peat's work until my mid 40's. I shudder to think how things might be otherwise.

Yes, me too, except I was in my 50’s. I’m in warm climate but at sea level.

 

[Tenacity]

If you think about it, some people have rice as their main sources of carbohydrates (tyw), one has pepsi, and VoS has mct oil, all of these are pretty much void of nutrients. That may make one wonder if eating very nutritious foods all the time is essential for health, or if, as Ray said, energy maintains cellular health and selectivity.

People who eat primarily rice in their diet are at a high risk of suffering from beriberi. I think carbohydrates need to come alongside very good sources of thiamine to avoid issues.

 

[raypeatclips]

If you think about it, some people have rice as their main sources of carbohydrates (tyw), one has pepsi, and VoS has mct oil, all of these are pretty much void of nutrients. That may make one wonder if eating very nutritious foods all the time is essential for health, or if, as Ray said, energy maintains cellular health and selectivity.

I have thought about this too. Peat has mentioned up to 50% of the diet as white sugar I believe (although this might have been when he was discussing the diabetes cure when those doctors gave patients loads of sugar to fix it.) I don't think it is really possible to get 100% nutritious foods in the diet, without being overly orthorexic about it. Whenever Peat mentions highly nutritious foods i.e liver and oysters, he says once a week, if not less frequently.

People who eat primarily rice in their diet are at a high risk of suffering from beriberi. I think carbohydrates need to come alongside very good sources of thiamine to avoid issues.

Do they really though? I have seen this mentioned across the forums, but I don't buy it. Rice is the staple of carb of so many Asian countries, India, China, Japan, Thailand. Looking at these countries, especially China and India, I bet the majority of the world uses rice as their main carb source, compared to other sources. Beri beri would surely be absolutely rampant and widespread, if this was true?

 

[Tenacity]

Do they really though? I have seen this mentioned across the forums, but I don't buy it. Rice is the staple of carb of so many Asian countries, India, China, Japan, Thailand. Looking at these countries, especially China and India, I bet the majority of the world uses rice as their main carb source, compared to other sources. Beri beri would surely be absolutely rampant and widespread, if this was true?

From what I read in this WHO report on thiamine deficiency, white rice does not provide enough thiamine per carbohydrate ingested, and beriberi has been alleviated by eating less white rice and more foods higher in thiamine, or by eating brown rice or parboiled rice instead.

Thiamine deficiency may be more common than you expect:

"In Europe, North America and Australia, thiamine deficiency is common among alcoholics and usually manifests itself as the Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome but has also been reported in patients on restricted diets for obesity, those who receive total parenteral nutrition and in those who are on fad diets or whose intakes are high in carbohydrate and low in thiamine (Kawai et al, 1980; Anderson et al, 1985; Feldman, 1988). Little attention has been given to possible thiamine deficiency in infancy. Studies in Australia have revealed quite unexpected incidence of biochemical thiamine deficiency in pregnant mothers at term and in apparently healthy infants subsequent to the neonatal period. Thiamine deficiency was found in infants and their mothers coming from families who had a high incidence of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (Australian Health and Medical Research Council, 1978; Wood et al, 1980; Jeffrey et al, 1985). In active young adults, subclinical yet biochemical thiamine deficiency may be a cardiovascular and a psychological stress factor as seen both in Japan (Anderson et al,1985) and the USA (Lonsdale et al,1980). Symptoms reported in the patients in the USA were those of neurotic dysfunction that are frequently treated by sedatives and psychological counselling. Diet history revealed increased consumption of high carbohydrate foods such as sweetened drinks and products made from refined wheat flour for long periods of time. The symptoms in the patients improved following the administration of thiamine. Thiamine deficiency occurs sporadically in people who are socially isolated, suffer loss of appetite and self neglect. In these cases ‘mixed’ vitamin deficiency syndromes are more common and respond better to vitamin B-complex treatment (Carney, 1971). Multiple vitamin B deficiencies including thiamine, pyridoxine and cyanocobalamin can result in polyneuropathy of varying manifestation. In Cuba in late 1992 and early 1993 there was an outbreak of a B vitamin deficiency related polyneuropathy affecting 50 000 people. It was reported to be a combination of a nutritional problem associated with possibly a toxic substance (WHO Press Release, September 1993). Thiamine deficiency is also seen in association with certain diseases: dysentery, diarrhea, cancer, liver diseases, infections and hyperthyroidism."

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/en/thiamine_in_emergencies_eng.pdf

 

[Dhair]

From what I read in this WHO report on thiamine deficiency, white rice does not provide enough thiamine per carbohydrate ingested, and beriberi has been alleviated by eating less white rice and more foods higher in thiamine, or by eating brown rice or parboiled rice instead.

Thiamine deficiency may be more common than you expect:

"In Europe, North America and Australia, thiamine deficiency is common among alcoholics and usually manifests itself as the Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome but has also been reported in patients on restricted diets for obesity, those who receive total parenteral nutrition and in those who are on fad diets or whose intakes are high in carbohydrate and low in thiamine (Kawai et al, 1980; Anderson et al, 1985; Feldman, 1988). Little attention has been given to possible thiamine deficiency in infancy. Studies in Australia have revealed quite unexpected incidence of biochemical thiamine deficiency in pregnant mothers at term and in apparently healthy infants subsequent to the neonatal period. Thiamine deficiency was found in infants and their mothers coming from families who had a high incidence of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (Australian Health and Medical Research Council, 1978; Wood et al, 1980; Jeffrey et al, 1985). In active young adults, subclinical yet biochemical thiamine deficiency may be a cardiovascular and a psychological stress factor as seen both in Japan (Anderson et al,1985) and the USA (Lonsdale et al,1980). Symptoms reported in the patients in the USA were those of neurotic dysfunction that are frequently treated by sedatives and psychological counselling. Diet history revealed increased consumption of high carbohydrate foods such as sweetened drinks and products made from refined wheat flour for long periods of time. The symptoms in the patients improved following the administration of thiamine. Thiamine deficiency occurs sporadically in people who are socially isolated, suffer loss of appetite and self neglect. In these cases ‘mixed’ vitamin deficiency syndromes are more common and respond better to vitamin B-complex treatment (Carney, 1971). Multiple vitamin B deficiencies including thiamine, pyridoxine and cyanocobalamin can result in polyneuropathy of varying manifestation. In Cuba in late 1992 and early 1993 there was an outbreak of a B vitamin deficiency related polyneuropathy affecting 50 000 people. It was reported to be a combination of a nutritional problem associated with possibly a toxic substance (WHO Press Release, September 1993). Thiamine deficiency is also seen in association with certain diseases: dysentery, diarrhea, cancer, liver diseases, infections and hyperthyroidism."

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/en/thiamine_in_emergencies_eng.pdf

Most commercial brands of white rice (in the US) have added thiamine. Unfortunately, they also have added iron. I'm assuming the added B1 is because of this research.

 

[raypeatclips]

From what I read in this WHO report on thiamine deficiency, white rice does not provide enough thiamine per carbohydrate ingested, and beriberi has been alleviated by eating less white rice and more foods higher in thiamine, or by eating brown rice or parboiled rice instead.

Thiamine deficiency may be more common than you expect:

"In Europe, North America and Australia, thiamine deficiency is common among alcoholics and usually manifests itself as the Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome but has also been reported in patients on restricted diets for obesity, those who receive total parenteral nutrition and in those who are on fad diets or whose intakes are high in carbohydrate and low in thiamine (Kawai et al, 1980; Anderson et al, 1985; Feldman, 1988). Little attention has been given to possible thiamine deficiency in infancy. Studies in Australia have revealed quite unexpected incidence of biochemical thiamine deficiency in pregnant mothers at term and in apparently healthy infants subsequent to the neonatal period. Thiamine deficiency was found in infants and their mothers coming from families who had a high incidence of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (Australian Health and Medical Research Council, 1978; Wood et al, 1980; Jeffrey et al, 1985). In active young adults, subclinical yet biochemical thiamine deficiency may be a cardiovascular and a psychological stress factor as seen both in Japan (Anderson et al,1985) and the USA (Lonsdale et al,1980). Symptoms reported in the patients in the USA were those of neurotic dysfunction that are frequently treated by sedatives and psychological counselling. Diet history revealed increased consumption of high carbohydrate foods such as sweetened drinks and products made from refined wheat flour for long periods of time. The symptoms in the patients improved following the administration of thiamine. Thiamine deficiency occurs sporadically in people who are socially isolated, suffer loss of appetite and self neglect. In these cases ‘mixed’ vitamin deficiency syndromes are more common and respond better to vitamin B-complex treatment (Carney, 1971). Multiple vitamin B deficiencies including thiamine, pyridoxine and cyanocobalamin can result in polyneuropathy of varying manifestation. In Cuba in late 1992 and early 1993 there was an outbreak of a B vitamin deficiency related polyneuropathy affecting 50 000 people. It was reported to be a combination of a nutritional problem associated with possibly a toxic substance (WHO Press Release, September 1993). Thiamine deficiency is also seen in association with certain diseases: dysentery, diarrhea, cancer, liver diseases, infections and hyperthyroidism."

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/en/thiamine_in_emergencies_eng.pdf

Thanks for the quote. The thing is, nowhere in that quote mentions rice. It mentions alcohols depleting effects, sugary drinks and refined wheat flour. This is on a forum of people that consume drastic amounts of sugary drinks. It also focuses Australia, Europe and America, with a mention of Japan half way through. Where are all these huge rice eating countries in these reports? India, China?

Just reading through the PDF, thanks for that link. I doubt many people with these issues are doing "Peaty" things such as eating liver, seafood, orange juice, egg yolks, which probably allow for more rice to be eaten.

 

[Tenacity]

Thanks for the quote. The thing is, nowhere in that quote mentions rice. It mentions alcohols depleting effects, sugary drinks and refined wheat flour. This is on a forum of people that consume drastic amounts of sugary drinks. It also focuses Australia, Europe and America, with a mention of Japan half way through. Where are all these huge rice eating countries in these reports? India, China?

They talk about rice in the rest of the report.

"Thiamine deficiency has been observed in pregnant women who have increased demands for thiamine. Rolfe and colleagues (1993) reported that it may be an unrecognized complication of pregnancy in urban areas in certain parts of Africa and Asia and be a cause of preventable maternal death. The potential for large outbreaks of thiamine deficiency exist in urban areas in West Africa where polished rice is the staple diet with many asymptomatic people probably having subnormal thiamine levels. In 1988, an outbreak of thiamine deficiency occurred in a rural area in The Gambia. At least 140 people, mainly young men, were affected and 22 died (Tang et al, 1989). In 1990–1991 38 patients with thiamine deficiency were seen in a hospital in The Gambia and 4 patients (10.5%) died (Rolfe et al, 1993). In areas where rice is the staple, cases have been reported each year in the rainy season when food supplies are lowest and there is intense agricultural activity with increased energy expenditure. There have also been reports of outbreaks in confined populations in The Gambia: in prisons, psychiatric units, among communally-fed policemen, as well as amongst migrant workers in Ethiopia (Marsden et al, 1967; Rolfe et al, 1993)."

"The great outbreaks of thiamine deficiency in South-East Asia at the beginning of this century followed the large scale production of milled rice and its large scale distribution. The availability of milled rice as a cheap and popular food in urban areas was also a factor of importance for the occurrence of thiamine deficiency in those areas. The requirement of thiamine is increased when carbohydrates are taken in large amounts and is raised during periods of increased metabolism, for example, fever, muscular activity, hyperthyroidism and also during pregnancy and lactation. A diet based on polished rice is high in carbohydrates which augments the thiamine requirement and is compounded by a low thiamine content."

This information makes me wonder about my own autonomic dysfunction, and the fact that it occurred after a little while of doing a very low fat diet using honey and dates as the staple energy source.

 

[raypeatclips]

@Tenacity This is what I'm talking about. When the PDF provides a "diet" of someone that has developed thiamine deficiency... just look at it. That isn't a diet at all. Someone eating that diet would have deficiencies of almost everything. Simply quoting on the forum "rice causes beri beri" is completely unnecessary and it only occurs when people are literally eating rice and barely anything else. A "normal" person probably eats around what? 150g rice a day? Alongside a normal diet, i.e meat, vegetables, fruits, cheese, seafood, liver, eggs, this really isn't something to be concerned about.

 

[Tenacity]

@Tenacity This is what I'm talking about. When the PDF provides a "diet" of someone that has developed thiamine deficiency... just look at it. That isn't a diet at all. Someone eating that diet would have deficiencies of almost everything. Simply quoting on the forum "rice causes beri beri" is completely unnecessary and it only occurs when people are literally eating rice and barely anything else. A "normal" person probably eats around what? 150g rice a day? Alongside a normal diet, i.e meat, vegetables, fruits, cheese, seafood, liver, eggs, this really isn't something to be concerned about.

I said 'people who primarily eat rice'. But I agree that a refugee's ration isn't anything to draw conclusions from. I was more interested in typical cases of thiamine deficiency among the general population. Wagner mentioned rice in the context of foods that provide a lot of energy but little nutrition.

 

[Wagner83]

I have thought about this too. Peat has mentioned up to 50% of the diet as white sugar I believe (although this might have been when he was discussing the diabetes cure when those doctors gave patients loads of sugar to fix it.) I don't think it is really possible to get 100% nutritious foods in the diet, without being overly orthorexic about it. Whenever Peat mentions highly nutritious foods i.e liver and oysters, he says once a week, if not less frequently.

If you focus on tubers and fruits then you get better "nutrition" (as in nutrients quantity). I've seen him say white sugar is just to be used acutely as anti-stress method but otherwise I doubt he drinks any besides one coke.

People who eat primarily rice in their diet are at a high risk of suffering from beriberi. I think carbohydrates need to come alongside very good sources of thiamine to avoid issues.

I thought this was caused by eating blueberries, raspberries and strawberries while listening to "Music Play" at the same time ?

 

[raypeatclips]

I said 'people who primarily eat rice'. But I agree that a refugee's ration isn't anything to draw conclusions from. I was more interested in typical cases of thiamine deficiency among the general population. Wagner mentioned rice in the context of foods that provide a lot of energy but little nutrition.

It is very specific though. I bet if you eat any single thing as a primary source of food you would run into problems.

 

[raypeatclips]

If you focus on tubers and fruits then you get better "nutrition" (as in nutrients quantity). I've seen him say white sugar is just to be used acutely as anti-stress method but otherwise I doubt he drinks any besides one coke.

I thought this was caused by eating blueberries, raspberries and strawberries while listening to "Music Play" at the same time ?

It is probably just people on here that pound white sugar in the name of Peat and run into problems, I also doubt he has white sugar every single day.

 

[Tenacity]

It is very specific though. I bet if you eat any single thing as a primary source of food you would run into problems.

I take it to mean that if you eat a high-carb diet, you better be ensuring you get enough thiamine somehow.

 

[haidut]

@Travis @haidut, you may find some of the scientists he mentioned worth investigating.
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository


@tomisonbottom, No.

Thanks, great exchange. This last part struck a powerful note that I also alluded to a few times in the past:

Although occasionally a short supplementation of progesterone, pregnenolone, or thyroid will decisively correct a problem, most often there has been something environmental-nutritional that had to be changed. If people don’t change their diet and/or problematic surroundings, then they are dependent on hormones, stimulants, antiinflammatories, etc.

If you live in a Western city, every time you ingest a commercial food or drink, or get shrunk into sweaty obedient mess by your psychopathic boss, or get infuriated by yet another email/text that you have been charged a "convenience" fee and your bank account is overdrawn, or get signed up for various "benefits" against your will (Wells Fargo anyone?) or (God forbid) you pop a "harmless" PPI, BP or SSRI drug you get a powerful dose of aging/disease. Unless that changes, which for most people is not likely, then some form of corrective action like supplements, special diet, aspirin, anti-serotonin, etc is needed just to slow down the deterioration.

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks, great exchange. This last part struck a powerful note that I also alluded to a few times in the past:


If you live in a Western city, every time you ingest a commercial food or drink, or get shrunk into sweaty obedient mess by your psychopathic boss, or get infuriated by yet another email/text that you have been charged a "convenience" fee and your bank account is overdrawn, or get signed up for various "benefits" against your will (Wells Fargo anyone?) or (God forbid) you pop a "harmless" PPI, BP or SSRI drug you get a powerful dose of aging/disease. Unless that changes, which for most people is not likely, then some form of corrective action like supplements, special diet, aspirin, anti-serotonin, etc is needed just to slow down the deterioration.

Yes I guess the story of the climber who regrew his hair is fantastic in that regard. To add a pinch of salt to this concept that environment and diet are the one and only factors in health, first different individuals resist much less or much more to all the crap, regardless of their own past, second, I personnally find that a similar restricted diet can make me feel fanstastic for a few days (great digestion etc..) and like crap an other day (slowed digestion, loose stools, dark circle under the eyes, caveat: need more experiment on a longer timeframe). For the most part I'm doing a lot better but when environment doesn't deteriorate and diet doesn't change it would be nice to get consistent results. Did you ever notice that the body for reasons besides environment and diet (basically, out of the blue) may not function optimally on certain occasions?

 

[Dhair]

Thanks, great exchange. This last part struck a powerful note that I also alluded to a few times in the past:


If you live in a Western city, every time you ingest a commercial food or drink, or get shrunk into sweaty obedient mess by your psychopathic boss, or get infuriated by yet another email/text that you have been charged a "convenience" fee and your bank account is overdrawn, or get signed up for various "benefits" against your will (Wells Fargo anyone?) or (God forbid) you pop a "harmless" PPI, BP or SSRI drug you get a powerful dose of aging/disease. Unless that changes, which for most people is not likely, then some form of corrective action like supplements, special diet, aspirin, anti-serotonin, etc is needed just to slow down the deterioration.

This is awfully depressing and defeatist.
Maybe this is true for people already locked into the system (kids, marriage, mortgage, etc) but if you are in a position where you can make some money in an environment where you have even one or two supportive people in your life, you could feasibly save up enough in a relatively short period of time to explore limitless options for treatment or gain a better understand of where your environmental deficits lie. It does NOT have to be nearly as difficult as many people on this forum make it out to be, and I'm speaking as someone who is only just beginning to make marginal progress in my health...