Men With Higher Levels Of Serum Testosterone Have Lower-status Occupations

Makrosky

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It would be nice to see the levels of other hormones. Isolated testosterone.... Well, correlation doesn't mean causation.
 

bdawg

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It would be nice to see the levels of other hormones. Isolated testosterone.... Well, correlation doesn't mean causation.

exactly, testosterone and low intelligence perhaps. Whereas testosterone and high intelligence is associated with corporate and financial success
 

Frankdee20

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exactly, testosterone and low intelligence perhaps. Whereas testosterone and high intelligence is associated with corporate and financial success

Shouldn't higher androgens correlate with higher intelligence relative to low androgens in the same individual? Also, I recall reading that higher IQ doesn't correlate with significance in ones work. Many high IQ people have menial jobs.
 

Hugh Johnson

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It's probably obedience. Obedient people do well in school, because teaching obedience is the main purpose of schooling. So submissive, obedient men are likely to succeed in school and corporate environment.
 

Thoushant

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In case you're interested the author is James M Dabbs Jr. if you want pictures
 

Frankdee20

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It's probably obedience. Obedient people do well in school, because teaching obedience is the main purpose of schooling. So submissive, obedient men are likely to succeed in school and corporate environment.

Great point, slaves to the system are many. One can't even defy the liberal status quo in school without expecting backlash.
 

Frankdee20

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It's probably obedience. Obedient people do well in school, because teaching obedience is the main purpose of schooling. So submissive, obedient men are likely to succeed in school and corporate environment.

Great point, slaves to the system are many. One can't even defy the liberal status quo in school without expecting backlash.
 

schultz

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It's a shame they didn't check aromatase activity or 5-ar at the very least.

Random quote from the paper:

"Diet appears to be important, with greater fat and protein intake associated with lower testosterone (Bishop et al.1988)"


It's probably obedience. Obedient people do well in school, because teaching obedience is the main purpose of schooling. So submissive, obedient men are likely to succeed in school and corporate environment.

They pretty much say this in the paper, but not so directly. I don't think school is a great environment (well, for most people) for boys. I did terrible in school. Of my two brothers, 1 got moderate grades in school and now works in an office environment and the other barely passed highschool (like myself lol) but is now a physician and was top in his class in Med. school. My sister had higher grades than all of us (90's) and went to school for musical theatre (much to the chagrin of my father who would have liked to see her be an accountant or something). In my opinion school is a huge waste of time and it's a tragedy that we send kids there to sit in a classroom for their entire childhood. I will never send my kids to school, though I get a lot of pressure from family and even strangers to do so.

"High-testosterone individuals may be more antisocial because they tend toward wild and excessive behavior (Dabbs & Morris 1990) or because they react negatively to frustration and challenges (Olweus, Mattsson & Low 1988). High-testosterone individuals may be lower in intelligence because they have had less exposure to schooling."

"... high-testosterone individuals may find little satisfaction spending hours sitting in classrooms and considering ideas."



 

tankasnowgod

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Well, I think the most important question is what, exactly, the authors think is a high and low status occupation. I wouldn't doubt they consider something like "writer" high status and "construction worker" as low status. They may be comparing occupations that build and maintain muscle against ones that don't, and then making "status" seem like the causal factor.
 

Hugh Johnson

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It's a shame they didn't check aromatase activity or 5-ar at the very least.

Random quote from the paper:

"Diet appears to be important, with greater fat and protein intake associated with lower testosterone (Bishop et al.1988)"



They pretty much say this in the paper, but not so directly. I don't think school is a great environment (well, for most people) for boys. I did terrible in school. Of my two brothers, 1 got moderate grades in school and now works in an office environment and the other barely passed highschool (like myself lol) but is now a physician and was top in his class in Med. school. My sister had higher grades than all of us (90's) and went to school for musical theatre (much to the chagrin of my father who would have liked to see her be an accountant or something). In my opinion school is a huge waste of time and it's a tragedy that we send kids there to sit in a classroom for their entire childhood. I will never send my kids to school, though I get a lot of pressure from family and even strangers to do so.

"High-testosterone individuals may be more antisocial because they tend toward wild and excessive behavior (Dabbs & Morris 1990) or because they react negatively to frustration and challenges (Olweus, Mattsson & Low 1988). High-testosterone individuals may be lower in intelligence because they have had less exposure to schooling."

"... high-testosterone individuals may find little satisfaction spending hours sitting in classrooms and considering ideas."

Their causation is the wrong way around. Intelligent people are more adaptable, and since the school environment demands submission above all, intelligent people are more likely to become submissive. It's the same as intelligent people being more likely to experiment sexually, stay up late or use narcotics.

I suggest looking into John Taylor Gatto's work if you have not already:


 

opethfeldt

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This echoes my experience. When I had low androgens and was basically a rule-following "good" employee, I had higher social status than when I became more assertive and able to speak my mind. A lot of companies would rather you just keep your mouth shut and do your job. The exception is obviously managerial positions, where being more socially aggressive would make you a better manager. I find it ironic that higher androgens make people better managers while at the same time reducing the chances of someone actually attaining said higher status.
 

sladerunner69

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how do you explain mike tyson

His line of work isn't what I would consider the typical, white collar, office job.

Also men with higher testosterone may tend to have higher estrogen and lower DHT if they have high aromatase activity and lowered 5ar activity. I am unwilling to draw any conclusions for this study it is too simplified, why can't Oxford Scientists take a full hormone panel? Englands brightest don't comprehend that hormones and androgens are systemic, and have a wide range of interactions at many levels?
 

lampofred

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Why would you even do this study? The only goal I can think of is to brainwash men into being satisfied with low-status jobs and not aim for the top.
 

Constatine

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Well some high status jobs can also cause low testosterone and some low status jobs can cause high testosterone. A doctor who stays indoors all day and does minimal physical labor is going to have lower testosterone than a construction worker who spends all day out in the sun doing manual labor.
 

DaveFoster

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It's probably obedience. Obedient people do well in school, because teaching obedience is the main purpose of schooling. So submissive, obedient men are likely to succeed in school and corporate environment.
Agreeableness contributes to favorable academic outcomes for women.
 

DaveFoster

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Partially. Women are also slighty more concentious than men.
Very marginally:

Gender Differences in Personality across the Ten Aspects of the Big Five

"Conscientiousness describes traits related to self-discipline, organization, and the control of impulses, and appears to reflect the ability to exert self-control in order to follow rules or maintain goal pursuit. Women score somewhat higher than men on some facets of Conscientiousness, such as order, dutifulness, and self-discipline (Feingold, 1994; Costa et al., 2001). These differences, however, are not consistent across cultures, and no significant gender difference has typically been found in Conscientiousness at the Big Five trait level (Costa et al., 2001)."

Women endure significantly more neuroticism (and anxiety levels with elevated CRH due to estrogen for example), which, along with conscientiousness patterns female meticulousness, certainly beneficial for academia.
 

Hugh Johnson

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Very marginally:

Gender Differences in Personality across the Ten Aspects of the Big Five

"Conscientiousness describes traits related to self-discipline, organization, and the control of impulses, and appears to reflect the ability to exert self-control in order to follow rules or maintain goal pursuit. Women score somewhat higher than men on some facets of Conscientiousness, such as order, dutifulness, and self-discipline (Feingold, 1994; Costa et al., 2001). These differences, however, are not consistent across cultures, and no significant gender difference has typically been found in Conscientiousness at the Big Five trait level (Costa et al., 2001)."

Women endure significantly more neuroticism (and anxiety levels with elevated CRH due to estrogen for example), which, along with conscientiousness patterns female meticulousness, certainly beneficial for academia.
You are missing a neurological difference here. Women become more meticulous with stress, men less. Which is obviously helpful in school.
 

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